AIBU to think a big reason to birth rate is falling is because mothers are made to feel they must do more for their children than in previous times?

[TheJoyOfWriting]

Now there's a lot more focus on mothers needing to do a lot, the whole 'concerted cultivation' thing where kids have a lot of activities that need help and travel time etc, pressure to get into top schools & unis arguably more than there was in the past, and for support & extra activities from an early age to enable this.

Wheras say, children in the 60s and 70s or before had a lot more independent play time and time outside without adult supervision
The gentle parenting thing ties in to this too, whereas before parents generally did not use such high-intensity strategies.

Working mums are made tp feel guilty often of they can't make the school run. But in previous times children often walked alone or with friends at pre-seckndary school age..my gran was walking to school at 6, tho admittedly this wad as an evacuee in the country
I think it's good we're more safety conscious now but also think that it's gone a bit too far in some ways and put too much pressure mainly on mothers.

otoh there's obvs areas where children are unsafe, and this must be addressed.
Maybe also an effect of the climate crisis will be to have less driving, so this would also make streets safer.

There's a lot of talk that mothers spend less time w kids now and this is why there is too much screen time. But I think that's wrong.
Studies show mothers, including both working and SAHM, spend more time with children than most SAHMs in the 1960s did

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2017/11/27/parents-now-spend-twice-as-much-time-with-their-children-as-50-years-ago&ved=2ahUKEwjuxsiS-dWPAxW3YEEAHXHsO044ChAWegQINhAB&usg=AOvVaw0RS-idWHNILw0SaKskdwRI

I don't think online stuff is bc mothers aren't spending time. I think it's bc there's a perception of less safety so kids are kept inside more than previously and are allowed screen access, so that takes place instead.

I'm saying this as a Gen Z who's really happy that my single mother (we lived w my gran tho who helped a lot) helped w my music & other hobbies. I don't think this is necessarily bad at all, I just think there needs to be more balance.

So what do people think? Is the expectation for children to be much more supervised now making women feel that children require much more effort than they actually do, and therefore affecting the birth rate?

We renovated an ex council house whereas they are looking at new builds or not what I would call" first time homes".

whereas most people I know having dc are older and moving frequently is expensive so often have different needs so couples buying in their early 20s

We ran 1 car despite us both working whereas they run 2.

The only families I know with 2 cars need them to facilitate 2 working parents with commutes.

We bought lots of furniture, clothes, uniform etc secondhand but they don't think about this.

Who is buying all the stuff from charity shops, eBay, Vinted? I have lots of 2nd hand uniform.

I don't think kids need to be a drudge though. I think modern expectations of intensive parental involvement make it a lot harder than it needs to be

French Children Don't Throw Food is a silly book in some ways but does have good points about how the author felt pressure (she was a NYer living in France) to always be interacting w her kids whereas the French women she knew left them to play by themselves more & fostered independence at a younger age.

This year we are responsible to plan a parent teaching day. The teachers won't be a the school but on a training day somewhere.
Parents are expected to take over the whole day 9am-3.30pm.

Yesterday we were expected to join the school's anniversary from 03.30 to 7.15 pm.
Kids had fun. We had a day of work first. Oh, and we had to bring a homemade cake for a class to sell for charity.

It never stops.

I opted to have a baby before properly establishing my career because I have PCOS. I didn’t want the option taken away from me if my condition worsened. I’ve taken two years away from work, I’d just finished a masters when I gave birth. I’ve started searching for entry level roles and employers seem to think I’m some kind of unemployable vicky pollard character. Now feel like it’ll be years until I scrape something reasonable out of employment (not to mention most of it going on childcare), all because I dared to have a child under 30. My situation would be totally untenable if not for wealthy husband, which is monstrously unfair. My childless peers are all light years ahead of me career wise but are so petrified of falling behind they’re talking about freezing eggs.

I think this all broadly relates to the higher financial expectations, I think in that sense you’re absolutely right. I don’t think childless people take much notice of all the rest of the guilt tripping mum bullying stuff. Although it does put me off having more I suppose.

Probably all downstream of the housing crisis, most things are.

Are you suggesting I'm old lol?

I have a 7 year old DGC. His mother doesn't buy into the "need to do everything "camp either

He's expected to help out in the house, doesn't get loads of paid clubs that needs carting to

Dd doesn't devote her whole non working life around him, she has a lifeaalso

I think I'd say if forced to reach a single reason, which is almost certainly a massive oversimplification by me, that society runs in a way that means women tend to reach the age of having kids quite a bit later than they used to, by which point we're better able to know our own minds and advocate for our own choices.

I definitely do think all aspects of life now including raising kids is so so so much harder and more over engineered than it used to be. I think life is better when it's not too rigorously controlled but where's the balance.

I don't think so. I'm in Finland where there isn't the same kind of pressure on parents, here children are more independent much younger (walking to school alone starts in 1st grade - the school run is just not a thing here), you don't have to turn up to a million things in primary school, just two parents evenings a year, children play out still (my 7 year old has been playing out half the day) and things like that but our birth rate is even lower than in the UK.

Well you didn't have a day of work first if you were there at 3.15pm.

What would've happened if you had said no? Doubt you'd be arrested or kid thrown out of svhool

@Thechaseison71 well are old are you?

wages have stagnated, jobs are more competitive, house prices are more expensive. You don't have to believe that 🤷🏻‍♀️

2 daughters in their 30s . One with a primary aged child, the other will a college aged one and a nursery one.

Both working full time

So i get pretty up to date info I'd say

I don't think that it's the only factor but it's a big one. Some of the parenting things I've bought into (rightly or wrongly, I don't even know anymore) wouldn't be possible for us to do with a big family.

Well you didn't have a day of work first if you were there at 3.15pm.

Why would you assume that?

The money and support is likely to be a big factor, it’s why I didn’t have any more. Mainly down to the lack of support.

I'm quite aware of that stuff, but it's been the case for years .

I'm early 50s so same age as many of the parents here with primary school age kids

I had a shift at our local hospital from 10pm to 7am. But fair enough if you don't count that a full day... it think it was exhausting.

Okay right so the plan is now to not be arrested or have the kid thrown out of her school. Super. Great plan!

Well unless you started at 6am it could've been a half day at most

Good for you.

Overnight shift the night before. Time to rest before going at 3,15pm then

That was a reply for someone else so no need for the sarky tone

I'm quite aware of that stuff, but it's been the case for years

It was very different 20 years ago.

I'm early 50s so same age as many of the parents here with primary school age kids

I think your experience is quite different so wouldn't extrapolate that to others. It's quite unusual to be a grandma to a college aged dc in your early 50s.

Yes, some parents do feel an expectation to do more for their kids than they used to - although I think that’s largely only the case for the relatively well-off middle classes.

I don’t think this has anything to do with falling birth rates though. I think falling birth rates are much more down to people settling down a little later than they used to, not being able to buy property (or to move to accommodate more kids), having full control over contraception, expensive childcare, and having far less disposable income in general. I think it’s a lot more about money and property than time.

I don’t think a falling birth rate is a bad thing overall, though. People are living longer and at some point a smaller younger generation will become a smaller elderly population, which is probably a good thing really. Plus we’re in a climate crisis and the planet can’t support rising birth rates.

I also think there are good reasons why extended families living together isn’t the norm. Of course for some people it’s fantastic but in practice if this was the norm, an awful lot of women - and it would undoubtedly be primarily women who ended up taking it on - are going to find themselves caring for children and elderly parents with disabilities/dementia at the same time, while also working. I also think property prices mean that even if they pool resources, most families can’t afford a house big enough for a family of parents and kids and also grandparents to live in comfortably.

Added to that, living arrangements borne of duty and obligation (rather than a genuine wish for someone’s daily company) are very, very rarely good for family relationships in my opinion. I’ve seen it breed endless resentment and strain. My father witnessed that when his own grandmother lived with his family when he was a child. Yes, it’s standard in some cultures but everyone I’ve ever known from those cultures has said there are endless potential disadvantages to it.

There’s tendency for people to look back at the customs of times they didn’t actually live in through very rose-tinted spectacles.

Well unless you started at 6am it could've been a half day at most

I work 7-3, why would that be a half day at most? What about parents who do shift work? You have a very narrow experience...

Oh goody. It's been at least 5 mins since we had a gentle parenting bashing thread.

I've got no idea why you think gentle patenting is "high-intensity" by which I think you mean time consuming. You seem to imply that it makes children less independent, which is simply not true. Gentle parenting is about understanding your child's point of view, proving age appropriate explaintions when things go wrong, being empathetic and not using random punishments.

@Thechaseison71 How can you crow about awareness & experience and not even realise people work different hours/patterns to 9-5?! 😆

People are living longer and at some point a smaller younger generation will become a smaller elderly population, which is probably a good thing really. Plus we’re in a climate crisis and the planet can’t support rising birth rates.

The difficulty is in the interim bit which we are felling economically now. Our current set up is not affordable.