Gun control in the US

[Fraudornot]

With the assassination of Charlie Kirk looking like it’s been carried out by someone probably suffering from mental health issues with access to guns, why are Americans so unwilling to address gun control. I would love to hear from Americans to know why there is the reluctance.

They can't do much about it at this point. Start controlling access, "good" people will oblige, criminals won't. Far too many guns already in circulation, would take decades to undo.
But Kirk thought some deaths were acceptable. I can only assume others agree with him.

As soon as it was confirmed the killer was a white man, the ‘mental issues’ label was always going to be thrown around.

Meanwhile a cursory glance across the net shows he is a violent far right activist who uses 4chan references and follows antisemitic Nazi, Nick Fuentes who hated CK for not being racist enough. The killers mum is also a gun nut who had him at the gun range before he hit double digits, and his whole family are mega Trump supporters.

Before CKs body turned cold, white ‘Christian’ men were screaming retribution in the streets and threatening to kill all of ‘the left’ and bomb threats were sent to black institutions.

A mass radicalisation of white American men has taken place yet when one of them acts, instead of being called a member of a terrorist group like they should be, they are called ‘mentally ill lone wolf’.

Added to which the right to bear arms is enshrined in the constitution. It’s set in stone. It’s one of the founding principles of the nation. In some way perhaps the US is hampered by this now - the constitution was created centuries ago for a different time, for different people, when the world was a different place. We’re fortunate that our constitution here in the UK is unwritten. But the US is hampered by this document as no progression or deviation from these founding principles is possible.

But it can be and has been amended, the whole 'bear arms' is an amendment.

Comparing it to banning alcohol is an odd one … most people who die from alcohol are the ones drinking it, most people who die from gun violence are the ones being shot at. I don’t see it as comparable.

Nobody, outside of the Armed Forces, need to own an automatic or semi-automatic gun.

I saw a stand up once who said, let people own guns, but charge $10k for each bullet .. and he has a point, make ammunition hard to acquire, so people really need to think about how they are using it.

The more guns you have in circulation, the more gun deaths. If you own a gun, you are more likely to be killed by a gun

The place has never developed since the Wild West days. Solving problems by taking a pot-shot at someone, seems perfectly acceptable.

After Dunblane, we changed the law overnight, no more school shootings.

The best analogy I know is speed limits. How would you feel if the government decreed that all vehicles had to be fitted with a device to stop them exceeding the speed limit? Many people (including me) would like it, but many would see it as an infringement of freedom, and affecting their personal property which might be a person's pride and joy.

There might be tenuous arguments about how the ability to speed in a car/carry a gun could, under very rare circumstances, provide safety, but overall these freedoms cause many deaths and suffering.

It's actually not the will of the majority of people.

Most Americans do want better gun control. Most aren't gun obsessed maniacs. Most abhor school schooting. Most do understand their constitution can be changed. Look at the opinion polls. Charlie Kirk spoke at colleges as the young are easily riled up and lack empathy and he played on that.

It's a failure of government. It's the way American politicians are so suspectible to lobbying. It's the fact the highest power in the land the supreme court is unelected and completely partisan.

America is anything but free and many many US citizens understand that and sadly are developing an even keener understanding of it since Donald Trump came to power. The US voting system favours the republicans so the USA is at an impasse.

It's completely fucked but we mustnt pretend manu US citizens aren't normal fair minded, sane people. They probably feel like they're in a waking nightmare as a man in the thrall of Russia wrecks their country.

The most important thinis here is that in the UK we firmly ignore parties like reform trying to inport American style politics, policies and division.

It would be like saying to a British person that alcohol should be outlawed because so many people die of alcohol-related issues. Not many people would want their personal freedom constrained in this way. That is the best analogy I can think of for how the Americans I lived amongst thought

This really isn't the same argument though. It is the person consuming the alcohol who is most at risk of their own death. Others are not at such risk of harm. If there was as high an incidence of those using alcohol killing others around them as there is with guns in the US, it would be a more compatible argument. Eg drink-driving was banned because it was an example where the use of alcohol was causing a high risk of harm to others.

America is very insular because it is so huge.

Many americans never travel outside their own country and see the rest of the world as less than, second class and largely irrelevant unless they want something from it ie oil etc.

This is very interesting and I don’t know much about it at all.

Is it the case that the gun lobbies are so powerful that even under democrat governments, they weren’t able to push some gun control through?

Do you know why?

I think in the U.K. our government are lobbied by different groups too. Hopefully we are less susceptible to it though. Perhaps there is something in our set up that prevents a lobby of any kind having a big impact on our government? I hope so.
However, I am aware that Stonewall had a very strong impact on U.K. government and government institutions’ policies in recent years and it scares me.

I disagree with Charlie Kirk on everything I’ve heard from him so far (not all topics), however I would say,
fail to understand those you disagree with at your peril. stay in your bubble at your peril.

Too many guns around now for them to be willing to give them up. Keeping them under the guile of self defence.

It’s been interesting to read these thoughts. I started this thread after being struck by the speech of the head of the FBI at the press conference when they arrested the killer. He talked at great length about it being a watershed moment and things could get much worse or turnaround. At great length. But not one mention of guns being a factor. Just struck me as such a misguided overview of the situation.

I think it is really hard to find an analogy in the UK because we have already banned most things that would be similar over the centuries. You could say things like right to drink drive, a choose of the individual but at a danger to others, but already banned. Most things that an individual can do that would have that level of impact on others are already not allowed. We already accept the wide reaching limitation to the right to defend yourself at "using reasonable force".

He was active in Antifa discord servers and was photographed wearing a democratic socialist party t-shirt.

Like the man who attempted to shoot Trump there is mixed information about the political leanings of the man who killed Charlie Kirk.

What seems crazy to me is having read how the alleged shooter in this case was brought up to idolise guns. There are photos of him as a teen posing with a machine gun, a scoped rifle and a bazooka. He was even given a "build your own rifle" kit as a young teen.

The other thing I personally think is madness is that people over there are allowed to own high calibre weapons and machine guns. Having the Second Amendment is one thing, but when it was written guns were much more basic. There should have been restrictions on what type of guns could be kept, but that ship has sailed.

America’s political culture is totally different from that of the UK. The ‘right to bear arms’ isn’t just another law as we in the U.K. would understand it. It is a fundamental part of the country’s written constitution. Meaningful change to gun laws would entail amending the constitution.

Amending it is possible, and has happened in the past. But it would require broad bipartisan support in congress and in the federal government, and in the Supreme Court. The Republican Party currently controls those bodies. It remains completely opposed to any form of gun control, a position which is supported by the vast majority of the people who vote for it, so that simply isn’t going to happen.

Ultimately, a large proportion of Americans believe that the country’s horrifying level of shootings is a price worth paying for the constitutional right to bear arms. So guns remain legal.

America collectively decided that children being gunned down at school is acceptable to protect their 'freedom'. There is no coming back from that.

It’s terrifying. But if I personally lived in America, would I want a gun to protect my family? Yes. Yes I would.

Brilliant analogy! Thank you. There would be a war in the UK if you took away people’s right to poison themselves. Alcohol causes so much violence, pain and death, yet the majority of Brits are as attached to it as the Americans are to their guns.

Although the phrase if you outlaw alcohol, only the alcoholics will have alcohol is not so scary.

I agree it isn’t the same, but still a decent analogy when comparing UK culture to US culture.
Around half of all violent crime in the UK is alcohol related. People are far more likely to become violent when drunk. But that’s a risk we are willing to take to keep our alcohol.

Only outlaws have guns in the UK, though. And here I’m not scared about being shot. Surely that’s a good thing?

I don't think we in the he UK can do much about it but we must ensure we don't go down the route of loosening gun laws here.

A better analogy (which CK used in a debate) is to say who would support a ban on driving vehicles , which would save thousands of deaths but most people accept those deaths as the price of the freedom to drive.

I think there are two reasons

First is the emotional attachment to guns. I wonder if this dates back to the time Americans were settlers and guns were necessary to defend your land and family from bears, wolves, and thieving bastards. Watch the series 1883 and it gives an insight into the life and mindset. Anyone with no gun would have been toast. And that really wasn’t that many generations ago. Note it is the more remote, wild areas of the US that got settled later (ie not the coasts) that are most attached to guns.

Second is the stable door argument. In other words, the guns are out there and getting them all back would be impossible. Nobody pro gun likes to use this argument because it’s basically admitting that guns are bad and ideally they should have been banned 100 years ago or even 50 years ago. It’s not based on principle. But it’s probably the strongest argument.

I do think the alcohol analogy is a good one. I wonder how many die in the UK from alcohol related violence, accidents or drink driving. Obviously the big difference is that alcohol is not inherently a weapon designed to kill whereas a gun is.