Friend hates her young daughter

[kingsofleah]

I’m not making this post to tear down my friend, I do genuinely want to support her but I don’t know how.

She has an 8 year old daughter we’ll call (L) who she just can’t handle, she has completely lost authority over her and she will not do as she’s told.

L can be very disrespectful and disobedient, when my friends tells L not to do something she’ll respond with shut up you bitch to her mother who then pleads with her to stop what she’s doing while L will adamantly refuse so my friend will conclude she’s a horrible child and she hates her.

She has two teenagers from a different marriage and they were both reasonably compliant and well behaved so I think she had a different experience parenting them and didn’t face the challenges she does with L.
I watch as she argues with L and loses every battle, she’s always been softly spoken with no assertion and just seems completely intimidated and overwhelmed by L.
I am concerned at her revelation of hatred towards her daughter which is probably pure frustration but certainly isn’t going to do anyone any good in the long run especially as she seems to be so incredibly close to her teen children I’m concerned she might create a golden child v black sheep effect.

I feel sorry for L because her mum has clearly no patience with her and simply can’t be bothered with her challenging behaviour.
L can also become aggressive and verbally abusive towards her older siblings and her parents.
I don’t know what I’d do in this situation but from what she openly tells me she can’t stand her and when L keeps on and on for something as she is quite stubborn and does keep on but my friend will just snap at her to go away or to leave her alone.
I don’t know if it’s child abuse or just not coping with a challenging child she seems like she’s just stopped caring and I don’t know how to support her.

Well, so it sounds as though your friend's best efforts haven't got her anywhere for the last six years, yes? And whichever way you slice it this is a very unhappy, very isolated little girl with no known admirers either in her family or at school.

Be kind to your friend and/but at the same time be a broken record when it comes to getting professional input. It's probably nobody's fault but it is certainly by now out of hand. Do the older half siblings have a view?

You could if haven't already suggest books like:
How to Talk so Kids Will Listen and Listen so Kids Will Talk

The Explosive Child [Sixth Edition]: A New Approach for Understanding and Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children

or suggest local parenting classes.

TBH though it sound like there is more going on and perhaps parents aren't in mental space they can effect changes without some outside support. Is the school helpful - or are they all she's fine here?

I would talk to your friend and tell her that you’re concerned both about her and L. This is all going in a downward spiral. There’s a possibility that this little girl could be autistic with a PDA profile and a private assessment to rule this in or out would be a good first step. The parenting advice would differ depending on the outcome. As for your friend just offer a listening ear and see if you can get the opportunity to chip away at the negativity towards the child without dismissing her feelings. She sounds burnt out and exhausted. I think the child needs assessment before referring to anything like social services preventative services.

She has gone way beyond that. Why should she get 'choice'. Both parties need safeguarding. The parent is being abused by her out of control child and the child isn't being parented. If the parent won't do something about it, why shouldn't someone else report them. She needs parenting classes as an absolute minimum and that child needs taking in hand before she becomes an out of control teenager.

I would encourage her to book a session with a child or family therapist. They could be waiting ages for an assessment and whether ND or not they need some intervention now. Psychology Today will list people in their area. It's worth having a couple of initial calls to get a sense. Although private therapy will cost money it will save them in the long term as they need to turn things around before teenage years. She can then get on the assessment pathway at the same time.

https://www.respect.org.uk/pages/114-capva

She needs to get some support while her daughter is still small. Could you say you stumbled on this and thought it might be something that could help her?

She needs to access professional support before her daughter can become a danger to herself and her mum.

Nope, child learns language for somewhere, they don’t invent those words
so it’s likely one of following

1. bullies at school- now or historic. Saying same thing to her. Unresolved. Hence isolation of child. Bullies at school often come from abusive homes where they.l have heard language like that
2. abusive mother - yep…it happens even with people you like
3. abusive father…she’s hearing that language directed form her dad to mum, and is repeating that behavoiur. You cannot tell form your interaction with family if this goes on. Both victim and abuser will be able to hide it. Victim will find all sorts of normalising thought processes to avoid confronting this. That’s the abuse cycle. And why victims often never leave, or that it takes years.
4. watching totally inappropriate media - that’s laziness on paretns part to not filter her access
5. name calling from elder siblings…yep they can be buggers at younger kids too when paretns aren’t around

it’s one thing a kid being out of control due to a lot of factors. But using language like that is indicative that others are using that language in front of her. So that needs to be addressed too …and could be part and parcel of why child is being so out of control

As others have said, quiet at school, struggling socially, explosive at home is quite a known presentation for a masking autistic girl.

People on here who are blaming the parent - this is not helpful. My teen is only just on the pathway to diagnosis now, partly due to the messaging I got from others that it's a failure of parenting when they act out. Traditional parenting techniques don't work well for a PDA profile, while trashing the child's self-esteem.

My suggestion to you is that you do some research yourself on the presentation of autism (and ADHD) in girls, masking, PDA/ODD (pathological demand avoidance / oppositional defiant disorder) so that you can offer your friend some places to do further reading herself. In my experience, it's worth starting to treat a child with this kind of presentation as though they have a neuro-diversity and use the suggested parenting approach, as it can have a positive impact on the dynamic at home and the child's sense of self (as they are being understood rather than blamed and held at fault). Wish I'd got to this place myself much sooner...

Are you able to take the child out for the day and see how she does with you?

Frankly if there’s no behavioural issues jumping out, no explanation for her distress at home and she’s lashing out at her (now almost indifferent) mother, I would also be looking at the possibility she’s being abused by someone. I know this sounds extreme but it happens, unfortunately.

Just because her older children are compliant has nothing to do with being a good parent. Her older two were just compliant children

Why would it be a surprise that her youngest dd acts up. She knows her father has washed his hands of her and her mother hates her.

When she went to nursery did her mother talk to her dd and give her attention after being at work all day. Did she discuss with her child what sort of day she had or flag anything with the nursery of any problems or even change nurseries.
Was the nursery part of a phased plan to get her used to nursery before she started work or was it home with mummy one day then dumped in a strange environment the next for hours on end only for mummy to pick her up and have a routine of tea, bath and bed and doing the same again the following day

Not too sure whether this is a ND issue or just a little girl crying out for attention.

Why don’t you think she hears those words at home. You never know what goes on behind closed doors and if either or both parents rely on alcohol it isn’t that great a leap that this is where she is getting those words from.

Yes sounds like there might be issues..Maybe the mum.needs to talk to teachers and get some kind of assessment going if appropriate.

Being honest, I'm a bit shocked by what you've described.

Your friend's main focus seems to be on her child's behaviour, not her happiness and wellbeing.

What is she doing to help her child be happy, have fun and thrive?

If I had a child who was quiet, unhappy and had no friends at school, I'd be love-bombing them to the heavens at home (hugs, affection, letting them sleep in my bed, favourite treats, trips out, organising playdates and fun things) and letting a lot of things go. I wouldn't allow my child to call me names or anything like that, but I'd probably be looking to avoid confrontations and situations where this might occur.

Children can only endure so much misery. It sounds like L needs lots of love, positive parenting and 'scaffolding' in a low demand environment until things improve. When she's happier, maybe the expectations can be increased.

It sounds like oppositional defiance disorder.

Your friend needs to install secret cameras in common areas, record her behaviour, consult with a child psychiatrist and then drop her daughter off.

If this was me and that child has oppositional defiance disorder or a conduct disorder or whatever I would be medicating her. I would not put up with being assaulted or being spoken to like that.

I would also start taking defence classes because once that child starts puberty and has a growth spurt then things are going to get very difficult.

I'd tell my friend point blank that as she openly says herself that she hates her primary aged child things have clearly reached breaking point, then I'd ask her if she want you to support her to contact social services with her partner or if she would she prefer you make the referral yourself on their behalf. Those are the options. Your responsibility here is to safeguard the child.

The best option would be for her to ring them and ask for help, for family therapy and parenting courses and assessments for the child to rule out any underlying causes of the challenging behaviour. But she needs to be the adult here and recognise that currently she is failing her child.

I would be looking at the nursery and how that was handled as well as who is in the DD’s life.

The fact the dd doesn’t have any friends possibly because she doesn’t see her peers as children she can relate to. She has toxic parents unlike the other children and I wouldn’t be surprised if there was other abuse going on.

Her mother and father need to get their heads out of their wine bottles and start to find out why their dd is showing all the symptoms of being abused. Instead of blaming a 2 year old for not fitting into their lives and just accepting the abuse.

If they can’t do that or don’t want to face reality they need to hand their children over to someone else because they are failing all of them.

what is the age difference between the 2 older ones and this 6 year old.

Could one or both of the older children be abusing their sister.

Do they show their sister consistent love or do they also follow their parents lead and hate their sister or just ignore her.

OK, there's a fair amount to unpick here.
It sounds like this child has some neurodiversity potentially- she could be masking at school hence the quietness and struggling with the outbursts at home.

Paloma health assessed and diagnosed my 2 kids theough the right to choose pathway (just ask the GP for a referral) and speak withthe SENDCO at school should be spoken with, the school should really be helping her to integrate with her peers.

Mum sounds like she's completely burnt out- which also could be somewhat down to neurodiversity she has- she needs to figure out how to be assessed quickly.
I am pretty certain I'm neurodiverse, but my kids needs all need meeting before I can have my assessment, but I've spent some time recognising that my own children are quite a challenge for me to raise because the sensory seeking and avoidance respectively are hard for me to manage. DS likes to be wet and constantly soaks himself with everything that he can, then he touches me and I can't stand it. I really get the rage and I'm trying to control my own reactions, and then DD has food/fabric issues that mess with my requirement for routine and sameness and i needed to get to grips with understanding where everyone's needs clash, and how to get around that.

But first, they need some time apart. Can the DD go to a grandma one evening a week? Can she go anywhere so mum can relax a little and also start to think of a few ways to overcome some of the issues?

They need to also introduce some "Happy" activities. Bring some enjoyment into their relationship.

This absolutely is child abuse. Emotional abuse, and neglect. Setting boundaries is part of parent’s job, and it’s a job she’s refusing to do.

The child is eight. Whether the issues that have led to her behaviour are nature or nurture based, or a mixture of both, she had no control over them.

She isn’t responsible for the genes she inherited; she isn’t responsible for the home environment her parents have created.

Yes, her behaviour sounds awful, but it didn’t arise in a vacuum. The fact her mother is so ready to blame her and just feel sorry for herself, rather than being willing to look at her part in this and feel sorry for the child she is so abjectly failing, shows that the problem lies with her, and the girl’s father of course.

What seriously can an eight year old child do in this situation? Nothing. She has no adult tools, capacities or resources at her disposal whatsoever. She won’t even know why she’s behaving like this herself.

The parents have those adult resources etc, but they’re choosing to do absolutely nothing, just sit by while their daughter is clearly struggling and unhappy, and make her the bad guy. They chose to have this child but now she’s not what they expected, they cba to learn how to parent her properly. Sick.

And the number of people joining in with the “blame the child” mentality that invariably crops up on threads like this is also sickening. This is why child abuse is still such a problem in our society: because too many people genuinely think children are the problem and to blame for challenging family dynamics, not bad/ineffective/neglectful/abusive parents.

OP yes, I think you should report them if you can, hopefully they would meet the threshold for Early Help, but that is something the parents have to choose to engage with. I doubt the situation would meet the threshold for non-voluntary intervention, social services being as overstretched as they are. So it might not achieve anything, but at least you would have tried. Obviously if your friend realises it’s come from you, though, that’s your friendship gone. Could you do anything via the school?

Thank you for caring about this child anyway. Too many people really don’t care about vulnerable children in situations like this, preferring to demonise them and exonerate the parents. That’s the culture we live in.

Your poor friend, it sounds as if she is struggling to cope. Unfortunately your posts sound very judgemental and that is the worst thing you can be. You have no idea what might be behind this and given that she has 2 other well behaved kids there is clearly something different with this one.
The best thing you can do is offer a supportive non judgemental ear and it may be she is completely overwhelmed and exhausted and doesn't have the bandwidth to find support.
My son is 4 with ASD and I love him to bits but I've never been as depressed as I am right now. I'm constantly on edge, at the point of burnout. ND kids are all consuming and unless you have one you wont understand. They can be "fine" in school and completely different at home. I had a whole day of screaming last week. My 4 year told me he wanted me to die and kept hitting me asking me if I was dead yet. All because I asked him to do something he didn't want to do. He has ASD with a PDA profile. I have had black eyes, hair pulled out, bitten, scratched, kicked on an almost daily basis. We have plenty of professional support - occupational therapist, psychologist, parenting courses but it's mentally and physically exhausting. There is no respite. It is unpredictable and often you think you are making progress and the next minute you are back to square one. There have been no first day back at school photos, because I've mainly spent 2 hours in the morning trying to keep my son calm and regulated just so I can get him dressed, get him to eat and physically get him to school without causing a meltdown.
I strongly suspect your friends daughter has some sort of ND, if shes been waiting t years for an assessment no wonder shes at her wits end. Be kind.

As much as I dislike the cod psychiatry handed out on here sometimes, "L" sounds very like my DS8 who is autistic with PDA profile. The language does not mean bullying or abuse ime. DS has called me many a word I have never used at home, overheard from seniors at school or general society. (We overheard some choice language on a bus only yesterday!)

If your friend has two children who are not like this, it is the strongest possible evidence that her parenting is not to blame. I honestly thought I had spawned a demon at times, but that line of thinking helps nobody, least of all the child. Most children want to be good, liked and accepted, but your friend's child is struggling with this and is communicating that struggle through her behaviour. If she is aware of not being liked or accepted, it's like pouring petrol on a fire.

Ime PDA children to whom typical parental discipline is applied come back swinging, and that escalates very quickly. Your friend might want to contact the PDA Society (they are vg ime) for advice and support on how to deescalate the flashpoints. A surprising amount of the aggression is anxiety-driven.

This sounds like me, diagnosed as ND as an adult.

My “D”M had a very obvious dislike for me and failed to get me any kind of assessment or support even though she’s worked with ND adults and DC for a long time.

You can suggest your DF speaks to the School Nurse Service, to the class Teacher to see how she is in school and ask for the school SENCO to assess her.

You could also buy her a copy of The Explosive Child.

Ultimately though i would struggle to remain friends with someone who showed such an obvious dislike for their DC whilst simultaneously not accessing any kind of assessment or support.

I agree with this , we know of a family that are downright nasty to their children they are sworn at, screamed at constantly, given constant mixed messages and then wonder why the children don't behave but they are all down as Sen and they are not send! it's all down to parenting there's lots more I could say but would be very outing.

Exclusion bullying is still bullying

It’s exactly that sort of family.

Just because someone is middle class and presents in a certain way doesn’t mean they aren’t abusive and don’t use abusive language.

I think what comes across is your friends idea that everything is her young daughters fault. During the week, (Monday-Friday) Exactly how many minutes each day does this little girl interact with each member of her family.
I doubt it runs into hours
I think that this child needs intensive therapy and her parents need to understand that if you don’t listen to or talk to your child and just expect that they will thrive and you will all have a loving relationship just because they are your child they are in for a huge shock. Parenting involves lots and lots of talking and listening. A child needs attention and if the parents aren’t giving their daughter positive attention then the daughter will get that attention any way she can and if that means calling her mother a bitch and ignoring her requests then that is feeding the need for attention

Has your friend and her dh and the siblings ever consistently over months given this child their full attention, making sure one of them is with her, playing with her, talking and listening to her for a period of time before others join in the game or discussion and generally giving her the attention she so obviously craves before she acts up and gets the negative attention from her mother.

It might take months for her to feel comfortable and be able to trust her family

If your friend is comfortable financially why is she waiting to get an assessment on the NHS. Why doesn’t she go private?

If your friend thinks she is ND why isn’t she treating her Dd as someone who potentially could be ND. Once they can come to terms with that possibility and start to see that their dd isn’t a troublemaker but a child shaped by her parents attitude and expectation which is far beyond what she is capable of things can move forward

I have 2 children who at the time I didn’t know were ND. At the time I didn’t realise I was ND.

I spent hours of my time talking to them, listening to their experiences in nursery and school. Helping with homework. Fighting their corner against teachers who wouldn’t help them and dismissed their dyslexia because they didn’t believe in it.

All whilst being a single parent for 3weeks in every 4. As well as running a business. It is hard work and I can’t believe that if you have even just 1 child with any sort of issues that there is anytime to drink alcohol to excess every single night.

Maybe if your friend and her dh did some work helping their dd rather than necking alcohol each night, they would take some of the stress away from their lives

She sounds like she is very unhappy, it’s not normal for an 8yo to have no friends, she should be in therapy to get to the bottom of this and also if the could change schools to give her a fresh start.

The father also needs to step in

Have you suggested therapy for the dd ?