Friend hates her young daughter

[kingsofleah]

I’m not making this post to tear down my friend, I do genuinely want to support her but I don’t know how.

She has an 8 year old daughter we’ll call (L) who she just can’t handle, she has completely lost authority over her and she will not do as she’s told.

L can be very disrespectful and disobedient, when my friends tells L not to do something she’ll respond with shut up you bitch to her mother who then pleads with her to stop what she’s doing while L will adamantly refuse so my friend will conclude she’s a horrible child and she hates her.

She has two teenagers from a different marriage and they were both reasonably compliant and well behaved so I think she had a different experience parenting them and didn’t face the challenges she does with L.
I watch as she argues with L and loses every battle, she’s always been softly spoken with no assertion and just seems completely intimidated and overwhelmed by L.
I am concerned at her revelation of hatred towards her daughter which is probably pure frustration but certainly isn’t going to do anyone any good in the long run especially as she seems to be so incredibly close to her teen children I’m concerned she might create a golden child v black sheep effect.

I feel sorry for L because her mum has clearly no patience with her and simply can’t be bothered with her challenging behaviour.
L can also become aggressive and verbally abusive towards her older siblings and her parents.
I don’t know what I’d do in this situation but from what she openly tells me she can’t stand her and when L keeps on and on for something as she is quite stubborn and does keep on but my friend will just snap at her to go away or to leave her alone.
I don’t know if it’s child abuse or just not coping with a challenging child she seems like she’s just stopped caring and I don’t know how to support her.

If the older two are well behaved and they have different fathers to the youngest, I would be thinking maybe the youngest has SEN or ADHD.

Having said that, some kids are harder in general and need a firm NO. If she doesn’t have any SEN then your friend is going to need to be a lot stricter with her.

I have had help from the Early Support team and found them extremely helpful.

It does sound to me as if the girl is desperately seeking attention for her mum, if she is only getting attention when she is naughty that is what she will keep doing.

I did notice a few empty wine bottles by the door and joked about not being invited to the party, but she said it’s just her way of relaxing after L goes to bed because she needs to keep sane.
I enjoy the odd drink occasionally but not to cope with life.

I think it’s definitely in the family and she might have it but I thought she would’ve said, maybe she’s looking into it and hasn’t said anything yet but I will try and broach it.
Don’t want to overstep if she has chosen not to share

Sounds like the family need early help. Contact local Barnardos Family Hub to see what they can offer.

I'm autistic and I was basically a horror when I came home from school. I was working so hard to mask that I just exploded when I came home. My mother and father didn't like me very much when I was a child.

The fact that your friend is on the waiting list for an autism assessment suggests that there is some level of ND for this girl too. Autism is genetic and runs in families. The school are probably not going to pick up on this as quiet children are not problematic. It was me who realised that my extremely anxious 15 year old daughter was autistic, her school just saw a quiet girl and she had (nerdy not neurotypical) friends so they didn't see any issues. Your friend's daughter is clearly unhappy when she's home and she's unlikely to be happy at school if she's not liked by her peers there either. I cannot see this getting better without help, bluntly, spealing from personal experience, undiagnosed miserable autistic girls are at high risk for a CAMHS referral (which is disastrously underfunded and woefully inadequate).

I would empathise with your friend, she's clearly struggling and it must be awful to be routinely called a stupid bitch. But this girl needs help. The parents should be discussing the girls behaviour at home with the school and the GP.

What is the matter with some children these days, using such awful bad language at 8 years old! I'd never even heard that word at that age. In light of her dreadful behaviour, I suggest she needs some kind of psychiatric counselling.

So her child is friendless, swears at her parents and theyve given up so her answer is to drink bottles of wine?
No wonder this child is struggling! She needs to seek help from social services.

Judging, judging, OP. You haven't been in her position. Stop judging. Start helping. Calling SS isn't helping. You're taking agency and choice away from her.

Is your friend an older mum? Was the 8 year old planned?
Do you think as its probably her last child she spoilt her and now its backfired.
And your friends just to burnt out to deal with it properly. So let's alot of things slide so that now the lack of boundaries and consequences at home have led to her dd doing whatever she likes.

She's not judging. She's describing.

How else is she supposed to paint the picture to get helpful responses?

I know she won’t do that through fear of them all being taken away

Have you suggested parenting classes? Had she asked for advice from school? I know the DD behaves at school, but they can still help, especially if the school has a family worker (might be titled differently in different LAs)

I wouldn’t say older maybe around 30 when she had her but I know she was definitely longed for and they were delighted to be expecting.
She wasn’t spoilt but very much loved and cared for but about 2 when she started nursery her behaviour started to show.

Might be worth having a chat with NSPCC OP to discuss how to help, as you have concerns about the little girl's wellbeing www.nspcc.org.uk/keeping-children-safe/reporting-abuse/nspcc-helpline/

If Mum is ND, she might need support with her parenting (speaking as someone with autistic parents myself).

I meant to say she was a sahm until she turned 2 and that’s when we all noticed how much hard work she would be after she’d been at nursery

Everyone is quick to diagnose ND in place of poor parenting or behavioural issues but in this case I genuinely think it sounds like the mum is a crap parent who shouldn't have had another child in her new relationship. Maybe first time around the dad was a better parent than her or she had more energy, but this little girl is being failed by poor parenting and is badly behaved. She needs to go to some parenting classes but since she doesn't think she's at fault, she won't. Social services will be zero percent interested in a child that's being looked after and having their basic needs met - you have no idea how bad it needs to get for them to step in. My honest response is you can't do anything and there's nothing to be done. I'm sorry to say that in a post where you're looking for answers.

How easy to type that but so unhelpful. The OP is clearly concerned about her friend who is struggling - and even more so for her daughter. She is looking for advice on an anonymous forum.

I once came to Mumsnet with similar concerns and was torn down for ‘judging’ my friend when I was genuinely worried I should be doing something to help her daughter. Turns out my concerns were justified but the Mumsnet mob made me feel terrible for getting involved.

This is the kind of place where women should feel they can talk frankly to get different perspectives and support.

Oppositional defiance disorder? She is probably learning that language at school.

I also don't think there's much you can do unless you think there's a safeguarding concern with the use of alcohol or emotional abuse/ neglect in which case a safeguarding report to the school or social services would be appropriate. You could make an anonymous report to either.

I would talk openly to her about how is she coping given that it seems like its difficult and you can see how hard she's trying. I would encourage her to think of how she refills her own cup which might include counselling- sometimes people's own childhood hurts can get triggered by some children more than others and often they aren't expecting it and it can be difficult to identify that is what's happening. I would also ask if she's met with the school. I think it's possible the dd is ND and is masking at school and then emotionally exhausted by the time she gets home and then lashes out. Alternatively it's possible she's watching things happen at home that are concerning - are there any signs of control in the parents relationship? You could also suggest mum links her in with local youth work provision and they can work with her and support the family too.

In terms of where she hears the language it could be anywhere, home, school, the Internet.

Think this is really unfair comment, she is doing something by asking for help here. Not sure you actually helping as you are actually not bringing anything to the party. This is difficult as this is not her child.
what would you do then? as you seem so judgemental of the OP.

I would encourage her to talk to the school, my DD can have very challenging behaviours at home, she's different at school. She masks all day at school and explodes after school. She is also struggling socially with friends, and anxiety.

Ammiting to the school that i was struggling with her was one on the scariest things I've had to do. I was worried I would be blamed as a bad parent etc. However I was supported, my DD is receiving support, and is awaiting a assessment for ASD/ADHD. We still have our struggles, however I'm not alone in them, and when we are having a difficult patch we can look into her support plan.

Possible masking.

How sad that both parents have had enough of their DD, but her behaviour must be extreme if you won't even have her for 30 minutes. I don't think this is a case of bad parenting alone, I think it's clear the DD has issues and the parents don't know how to deal with it.

They will struggle to get help from the council aside from parenting courses (which are worth doing). Are they talking to the school?

The mum sounds like she has "blocked care". Possibly the dad too.

I would throw money at the problem, if they have money to spare. Full assessment of potential ND, sensory issues etc ideally by private psych and SIOT.

Then I would buy in respite care so the parents can get some headspace and get a plan together

They have to WANT to improve things though and the fact they've given up is so sad. How they behave now will impact their DD for the rest of her life. Maybe you can impress this onto the parents. If they are ND they might not see bigger picture.

Everyone (who has experience of ND) is quick to recognise these extreme behaviours are rarely simply down to poor parenting.