Page 4 | AIBU to think Cromwell

Justanotherdramalama · 2025-09-06T03:25:50+00:00

If you were visiting a castle in England and the name Cromwell was mentioned numerous times. Who would automatically come to mind?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 06/09/2025 09:51

Oliver.

GiveTheGoblinsSnacks · 06/09/2025 09:51

Thomas

superbakedpotato · 06/09/2025 10:03

HarrietBond · 06/09/2025 09:50

Cromwell was always Oliver until very recently unless you had a specific context that would mean Thomas.

When people thought about Henry VIII and his ministers they would usually think first about Wolsey, maybe Cranmer. Cromwell was very overlooked.

I find it fascinating that Wolf Hall has shifted this so much!

ETA I think also there has been an awful lot about the Tudors in popular culture over the last 20 years and the Civil War and Protectorate hasn’t been ‘fashionable’ for a long time now.

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It's amazing what an absolute banger of a book can do to change your thinking and help bring untold stories to life, and Hilary Mantel's work is genius. I think it shows why art is actually so valuable and important.

Same thing applies to the musical Hamilton - he'd be straight on my list now if asked about historical US figures, but I'd never really heard of him before seeing it.

HarrietBond · 06/09/2025 10:10

superbakedpotato · 06/09/2025 10:03

It's amazing what an absolute banger of a book can do to change your thinking and help bring untold stories to life, and Hilary Mantel's work is genius. I think it shows why art is actually so valuable and important.

Same thing applies to the musical Hamilton - he'd be straight on my list now if asked about historical US figures, but I'd never really heard of him before seeing it.

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Ha, yes, so true! I read the Federalist Papers as part of my history degree but could have thrown a stone in any crowded place for a long, long time before finding anyone else who could name Alexander Hamilton. And now here we are.

I’m all for it - and I was thrilled when Wolf Hall came out as I’d long been a ‘fan’ of Thomas Cromwell and thought he should be better known. But would never have imagined it would end up in him being ‘the’ Cromwell for so many!

ProfessionalWhimsicalSkidaddler · 06/09/2025 10:14

BMW6 · 06/09/2025 07:27

Not heard of Thomas Cromwell?

Instrumental in the Bible being printed in English?
Henry VIII's right-hand man?
Engineered Anne Boleyn's demise?
Advanced Protestantism immeasurably?
The Dissolution of the Monasteries?

I presume you are not British?

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I’m English and I don’t recall Thomas. Also have a gcse in history 🤣 I may have known about him 20/30 years ago but he hasn’t made it into my long term memory. Unlike Oliver.

TheAutumnalCrow · 06/09/2025 10:31

Justanotherdramalama · 06/09/2025 09:36

The reason I asked, was because last week I visited Skipton Castle and got into conversation with a lovely staff member who referenced Cromwell and some information boards in rooms referenced Cromwell. I automatically when I hear the name Cromwell think of Thomas and I was introduced to see if anyone else automatically thought the same as me. I probably do this because Tudor history is fascinating to me and I love Wolf Hall/the Tudors and Hilery Mantles books.

As a side, when talking to the staff member I got my history muddled and said oh are you talking about Cromwell in Henry the 8ths time and they said no Cromwell wasn't in those years he was much later. Reflecting on our conversation I don't think they had heard of Thomas Cromwell.

They used as I don't want to out the lovely staff member.

Ah ok, if I were at Skipton I’d be thinking ‘Civil War’ and the other feller …

So I’m changing my answer to Oliver.

jan2310 · 06/09/2025 11:02

HarrietBond · 06/09/2025 07:16

Cromwell as a single surname has always meant Oliver. He is a huge figure in British history.

Thomas Cromwell wasn’t all at well known until Wolf Hall (he wasn’t even Henry VIII’s best know minister called Thomas!) so I’d usually expect someone to use both his names talking about him even now.

I agree with this. Cromwell has always meant Oliver. If I was talking about Thomas Cromwell I’d always say Thomas Cromwell. He’s become a more well known historical figure since Wolf Hall.

spanieleyes · 06/09/2025 13:24

Given that Skipton Castle was the royalist stronghold in the north, then definitely Oliver! The staff members would know a great deal about that Cromwell and probably little about the previous one!

NoVibrato · 06/09/2025 13:28

HarrietBond · 06/09/2025 07:53

As someone who got interested in Thomas Cromwell doing A levels in the 90s I can tell you that very few people had heard of him until Hilary Mantel made him famous, despite what he did.

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I'm not entirely sure of this; back in the day when schools were big on the high spots of Brit History, loads of people got a dose of the Tudors and Wolsey, Cromwell, Anne Boleyn, the dissolution of the monasteries etc.
But I'm with the general consensus that if we are in a fortified castle or manor house, it will probably be Oliver.

GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER · 06/09/2025 13:37

PaddlingSwan · 06/09/2025 07:17

Oliver. Proof that the UK does not do well as a republic.

So the fact that he was a puritanical miseryguts, banning Christmas and anything else people enjoyed, had nothing to do with it?

TheDandyLion · 06/09/2025 13:43

Ratafia · 06/09/2025 09:28

You really can't describe Thomas Cromwell as trivia. Even if you haven't read or watched Wolf Hall, if you know anything about Henry VIII you should know about Thomas Cromwell.

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You’re proving my point perfectly. What you don't consider as trivia is just what you happen to value. History is vast, and people specialise in or remember different parts of it.

ComeTheMoment · 06/09/2025 13:46

Oliver Cromwell = castles
Thomas Cromwell = Monasteries

HarrietBond · 06/09/2025 13:59

NoVibrato · 06/09/2025 13:28

I'm not entirely sure of this; back in the day when schools were big on the high spots of Brit History, loads of people got a dose of the Tudors and Wolsey, Cromwell, Anne Boleyn, the dissolution of the monasteries etc.
But I'm with the general consensus that if we are in a fortified castle or manor house, it will probably be Oliver.

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There may be a generational gap in awareness. But at the time, when I was repeatedly writing my favourite Cromwell essay, everyone (and this included adults of various ages who were quite interested in history) assumed Cromwell=Oliver and had only heard of Wolsey if you mentioned Henry VIII. Obviously this won’t be the universal experience! But he definitely felt like ‘my’ Cromwell for a long time.

KingscoteStaff · 06/09/2025 16:01

Miss.

HarrietBond · 06/09/2025 16:02

KingscoteStaff · 06/09/2025 16:01

Miss.

She is my runner up Cromwell!

littleburn · 06/09/2025 16:16

CanadianJohn · 06/09/2025 04:53

Oliver... I associate castles with armies and warfare, so Oliver would be my choice. If it was a palace, I'd probably be thinking Thomas.

This would be my thought process too.

JohnTheRevelator · 06/09/2025 16:18

Oliver.

merryhouse · 06/09/2025 18:57

one of the ruins that Cromwell knocked about a bit...

Oliver. Though I've been aware of Thomas since I was about 10.

Titasaducksarse · 06/09/2025 19:01

Oliver
...
Cromwell Street!

TroysMammy · 06/09/2025 19:09

First thought Oliver, secondly his son Richard.