Drag - Fun or Fundamentally Insulting

[hellosumner]

Triggered by the strictly line up thread I wonder how people feel about drag.

YABU - Drag Queens are incredibly witty and talented and they are not insulting women by dressing as an exaggerated version of the female sex. It’s funny and clever.

YANBU - Drag is woman face and any other type of comedy based upon stereotyping a group in an exaggerated manner would be seen as unacceptable.

the people who do Drag will all have women in their lives with whom they are connected

How is this any different to saying, 'it's ok to make fun of gay people, one of my best friends is gay'

You can see just from this thread how internalised misogyny is in our society.

Old school pantomime dame style to drag j don’t have a problem with.

Its the very sexualised ones with porn star names dressing like they see women as vulgar and slutty I see as demeaning and misogynistic

The line between fun and insulting goes through the middle.

Men performing in hugely flamboyant, sparkly, feathery costumes with every kind of dramatic flair and pizzazz - brilliant! When done well can be hugely entertaining. What's insulting and degrading is the idea that this is in any way a "female" thing for a man to do. It isn't. Such ideas are just part of sickening sexism. Sometimes the patter between song numbers tells us how much contempt the man holds for women, and that his performance is a cruel parody, but that isn't true for all drag performers.

I’m becoming increasingly uncomfortable with Drag. I used to see it as an art form, the undeniably clever make up etc, but it’s turning into a parody of what the patriarchy considers stereotypically feminine. The way the drag artists often refer to themselves as ‘she/her’ when they are not in drag makes it feel a bit wrong, like they consider themselves to be women even though they are actually men. (It tips over into the domain of TRA/AGP men who declare themselves to be women despite having completely male bodies)

The hyper-sexualisation and sometimes demeaning ‘jokes’ bother me, I saw one drag artist had an Instagram bio along the lines of ‘just like the real thing; smelly and full of cum’ and it just repulsed me.

Panto dames are one thing, Lily Savage was genius, but some of the new drag artists are taking things too far.

Are you serious.

Are you suggesting blackface is a true portrayal of black people but drag is not a true depiction of woman and therefore not offensive.

WTAF! How racist can you get.

I think it’s a bit like porn, 15/20 years ago it was ok but since the advent of the internet it’s slipped into the OMG No! Category.

I found porn a turn on years ago but not now. It’s revolting. Same with drag. Used to be funny years ago now it’s just reductive, misogynistic drivel.

.Women aren’t the same - but nor are all black people. Also can you imagine the fuss if a blackface performer made the equivalent of a drag “fishy” joke? Drag is as bad as black face but you’re socialised not to see it.

The likes of Stanley Baxter, Dick Emery and Hinge and Brackett were a world away from modern drag queens.

did you just make up what I said and accuse me of racism? The point of blackface is to insult everyone of that race. The same cannot be said of drag, as well as the history of blackface is very clearly racist, whereas the history of drag is not inherently misogynistic, some can push the limits for sure, but as an ‘art form’ it is not (in my opinion) offensive

I generally think we shouldn’t be offended by comedy that is exaggerated versions of stereotypes, being able to poke fun at ourselves is a good thing on the whole.

So you'd apply that equally to racist stereotypes, @MidnightPatrol?

I do worry that drag builds confusion around trans... so more transface than womanface.

Didn’t vote as the narrative on the options were too narrow. I don’t like drag, don’t find it funny or entertaining. I don’t see the attraction or why it is so popular. I just avoid it.

Lily Savage was a character built with love for the strong Liverpudlian women Paul O'Grady grew up with.

The current wave of drag queens have absolutely nothing in common with Lily.

It’s awful. There’s no fan club of women dressing up in suits, yet we’re supposed to marvel and fawn over men wearing frocks and ridiculous make up! Again another erosion of men pushing female boundaries.

"because race is something you are born with and blackface denigrates everyone of that race"
Isn’t your sex something you are born with?

"Whereas make up, big hair and dresses are not uniformly ‘womenly’ I don’t wear make up or dresses, and men can wear them if they want to. It is not inherent to who women are"

Are you saying Blackface neatly depicts all black people?

I am shocked you wrote this?

Never said all black people are the same, but having dark skin is a typical trait and meant to incorporate insulting anyone who fits under that category.

i usually pick up on misogyny where others don’t, and am a very pro woman kind of feminist, but in this regard I largely just see people having fun, dressing how they want to dress. Some absolutely push limits and I am not a fan of crass humour personally, so I don’t typically engage with it. But as an ‘artform’ I don’t consider it offensive

I never get the ''woman face'' argument.

Drag Queen never claim to be real women or to represent women accurately.

Instead they choose to look completely outrageous, over the top and to use equally outrageous and witty/bitchy language. It is a performance.

Many seem to be gay men who have found in drag a way to build up their confidence and find new families (as unfortunately not everyone has the support of their family after they come out as not being straight).

I am a feminist, middle aged and I always love watching the outrageous costumes, make up and the comedy act.

I really don't find anything there to be offended about.

Tried explaining this to you twice and you are refusing to engage honestly, so nevermind, stay being insulted. Drag queens aren’t going anywhere

I absolutely hate it and I find it insulting and offensive. I have no idea how it has become mainstream acceptable.

Couldn’t agree more. He made it very clear, too, that Lily was a character, not him, and that he disliked the current style of very sexualised and stereotyping drag.

Why do they have to dress in exaggerated ways, call themselves disgusting names like Ann A Bortion and call actual women 'fish' to 'build up their confidence'?

Can you explain why it is not the same at all?

From where I’m sitting it looks exactly the same - nasty mocking of a group they are either harming or support the harm of.

I lived in Brighton in my 20's and all the drag acts just spoke about their 'crack', their 'holes', their 'tits', wore nothing but fishnets and high heels and laughed in piercing shrill squeals about anything related to their (non-existent/imaginary) vaginas.

It was fucking pathetic and I've hated them all ever since.

It’s woman face.

It’s an oppressor of a class (men) parodying in the most offensive and exaggerated ways the class they oppress (women). And the “jokes” are always about grotesquely punching down to women. Talking about being slags and having vaginas that smell of fish. It’s horrific and they’ve managed the wedge themselves somehow under the LGBT umbrella

Yes I’d like to know how it’s different as well