Drag - Fun or Fundamentally Insulting

[hellosumner]

Triggered by the strictly line up thread I wonder how people feel about drag.

YABU - Drag Queens are incredibly witty and talented and they are not insulting women by dressing as an exaggerated version of the female sex. It’s funny and clever.

YANBU - Drag is woman face and any other type of comedy based upon stereotyping a group in an exaggerated manner would be seen as unacceptable.

That is hypocrisy. If it's ok for a woman to play Mercutio (or Jesus for that matter) then why is it not ok for a man to play Juliet (not an exaggerated tits and ass Juliet but a genuine interpretation)

This! Our town now parades them through town in a car as the highlight of Pride! I don't want to support objectifying and hyper-sexualising females, but I do support gay rights. I don't want my kid to see a creepy clown faces on 50/60 year old men with fake eyelashes suggestively licking lips and "tits" of another drag queen on my high street in the middle of the day, just because I don't think people should be arrested or penalised for fancying the same gender.

Yes this. I know this a bit old gimmer, but I remember it as an extremely tongue in cheek niche entertainment form aimed at adults. Like most forms of entertainment, it could be done well or not well. And absolutely no one thought the men involved were actually women, or were representing womanhood in any deep meaningful sense. But now it's absolutely everywhere in a very forced way it just feels sort of naff?

I put YABU, although I don't feel so black and white about it as some drag is offensive and I'm sure some individual drag queens are misogynistic.

However, I'm a feminist and generally very sensitive to misogyny, and - from watching Drag Race at least - I just don't get the vibe that drag in general is mocking women or punching down.

A lot of the queens I've seen on Drag Race are incredibly talented singers/dancers and create amazing fashion looks. The majority of them are young gay men who enjoy flamboyant clothes and makeup, and have had a lot of abuse and rejection for being gay and 'feminine'.

I think of drag as a theatrical tradition that says screw you to gender, and it's a way that the drag queens can embrace things society has told them that as men they're not supposed to enjoy.

I'm watching the season with La Voix and she's great, really warm, talented, and amazing stage presence, kind of an old time showbiz feel. (I'd use 'she' for La Voix as she's a female character, but he for the man. He appears out of drag on the program - there's no pretending he's actually a woman!)

I know I'm in the minority on this thread. I did previously assume I'd hate drag as a feminist, until I watched a few series of Drag Race with DD. Honestly I just feel a kind of solidarity with the queens when I hear their stories.

Drag and a not like black face etc. it is also not just men dressed as women. These days it is drag kings, drag queens, even women being a drag character female - a local one to us is called “your mom” and she’s hilarious, does a drunk mom act and it’s fun. I go to the drag shows as my child (non binary/trans) does a dress king act her character is called Gus Lighter (gas lighter) and he’s this awful mysoginistic ahole of a guy who thinks everyone should love him and can’t understand why they think he’s slimy.

the venue is small and intimate and it’s a safe space and everyone there are friends/family of the people competing in the drag show. It’s very much a community and a positive place and even though I don’t much care for drag like the drag brunches and big shows I really do enjoy the experience. People being creative.

I see it as similar to sketch shows.

anyone who finds it offensive must see some aspect of themselves that is being mirrored that they dislike so maybe work on yourselves.

Fair enough, but it also meant women could cut their hair and wear trousers and short i.e Peter Pan/Prince Charming.

Drag has now just been co-opted by men but it was always a means for both. I sometimes think Mrs Merton was the same because she was subverting reality by being a very young aggressively outgoing woman playing a sweet old woman- it’s how I see Lily Savage etc.

I’ve just been to the Ru Paul ‘world tour’ on holiday in the US with a gay man who wanted company.
it was a big diverse happy crowd but quite a few left in the interval.
they were utterly talentless. None of them sang, they all lip synced. One could dance and one put on a restaging of a couple of Lady Gaga’s iconic videos. Two of them just stood in dresses and wigs lip syncing ( badly) to Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston and Celine Dion.
the host was old style but the most offensive with his outfits and over sexualised moves.
it had a real amateur feeling to it.
if this is the best talent in US drag I think it is on its last legs.
but in front of me were 5 young girls who looked like students and I think not gay ( only one of them stuck her hand up when the stage called out for lesbians) and they were LOVING it so maybe there is an audience amongst straight women too.
an evening of my life I will never get back

Hugh Pross-State

Then why the huge tits and fish jokes?

anyone who finds it offensive must see some aspect of themselves that is being mirrored that they dislike so maybe work on yourselves.

What? You think this is what going on with women objecting to the 'your vagina smells like a fish' jokes?

Seriously? Ffs 🙄

@mimblewimble if La Voix appears out of drag on the Ru Paul show, why is he not being introduced as Christopher Dennis as contestant in Strictly. As stated above, Go Compare chap was always Wynne Evans although most people would only know him (at that time) as Go Compare chap, we didn't see him in his costume for that advert. Why do we need to see La Voix with the false boobs and wigs?

I have seen some drag acts that were amazing, and as others have said, it’s part of theatre. These instances were variety type performances (singing and piano playing and gentle comedy) it was respectful and the entertainment value was the performance and artistry of the character on stage.

I’ve seen other acts though that made me deeply uncomfortable. Didn't feel like women were mocked, but more like they were being fetishised. The entertainment value relied 90% on the costumes and outrageous dancing. Felt very sexually gratuitous on the part of the performers and I came away feeling a bit grubby tbh.

So in short- drag can be done well, but done badly I find it offensive.

When I was a child (70s/80s) we laughed at crass seaside entertainers and tv shows who were often racist and sexist. I laughed at the pantomime dame each Christmas. It was a very different time and quite rightly a lot of the dreadful things that were brushed aside or actively encouraged 40 years ago are no longer acceptable.

Now I’m an adult in the 21st century. I find drag to be anachronistic and deeply offensive. Even tame drag makes me feel very uncomfortable. I really don’t understand why society puts up with men mocking women and ideas of femininity in this way. It disgusts me and I don’t think simply avoiding it is good enough - it should be banned.

I do wonder what people like Julian Clary make of it all. Do they get embarrassed or feel mocked when they see other old men acting like obsessively randy pantomime dames, spouting insults at women and pretending it's ok as they are "trans"?

But why does Drag persona come out from the theatre, tv show etc. You don't see the likes of Kenneth Branagh, Judi Dench, Adrian Lester etc walking down the High Street, on chat shows etc in their latest Shakespeare character, so why does a Drag artist be introduced as that persona when not in a Drag show?

It seems a lot of them don't want anyone to really know what they look like - they aren't really trans in the sense they can turn back into a man if they think it will benefit them. It's an act but they don't really have the balls to show their face because they like the perks of having both and pretending it's not about male dominance.

I dunno, I guess La Voix is a current drag artist, possibly competing in character as that persona because it's more fun to watch than some random guy? Maybe Wynne Evans didn't want to further promote his career as "Go Compare Chap"!

And Wynne Evans is not just Mr Go Compare - he is an opera singer and radio presenter. I saw him on Pointless Celebrities recently and he was there as himself, not as Gio Compario.

@mimblewimble but soap opera stars etc don’t appear as their character, why is it only Drag artists that don’t seem capable of appearing as themselves, they have to hide behind a false female (usually quite misogynistic) persona

Exactly my point. I can't imagine a situation where a woman would be able to ridicule a man's penis in the same way. It would be counted as obscene.

The only example that comes to mind is the 1980s comic Viz character called Buster Gonad (and his infeasibly large testicles). Now that was funny

@mimblewimble but it's only Drag artists who get to do this, to hide behind their persona, as an over exaggerated (misogynistic view of a ) woman. All the other contestants are famous for various things (some more so than others). Stefan Dennis, known to many as Paul Robinson in Neighbours). He is not named as Paul in the line up.. He won't be pretending he has a prosthetic leg which he has been doing for years in Neighbours. So why should a man be able to compete pretending to be a woman, all because they are a Drag artist. They are not a woman they are a man who puts on false boobs, a wig, dress and plasters over exaggerated make up on. You say he is a very nice person, well let's see that person not the character.

Interesting to see how many posters agree that drag is misogynistic and woman face.

Case in point is the new LIB episode. Of course they have to have a drag act at the Hen Do. Because that's when every woman wants the company a man dressed up like Dolly Parton talking about overtly sexualised things...REALLY?