To think that the education system is mad

[Applebun]

What is the point of A levels, when you don't need the grades anyway.

Everyone I know this year who did A levels, told me that if they didn't get the grades that they needed, the University still offered them a place anyway.

Eg the Uni says you must get ABB to get into the course. The student got CCC. The student was offered a place in the Uni anway.

I was talking to my colleague about it. He said that he got really bad grades in his A levels, way lower than what was required to get in, and the Uni still let him in to the course straight away.

The point then is - what is the point of A levels at all.
The Unis want paying students to go to their Uni to keep them going. A lot of them let any student in, no matter what grades they get.

So why make students go through the farcical system of A levels?

My son didnt get either his firm or insurance as he didnt do as well as hoped. So not everyone got in with reduced grades.

I think that the whole applying on predicted grades doesnt work well. Im sure with modern technology they could shift things a little and do applications after results. The manage clearing.

The grades needed reflecting the popularity of the course is also a bit odd. I understand its a market but it implies you need that grade to do the course, rather than its a filter as too many applicabts. My sons course was very popular so asks for high grades, same department, same uni, less popular course and its lower grade.

Yes but what if you don’t want to work in a trade?
What if you want to work in a field haven’t even interview you without a degree? It’s not the young people’s fault. It’s older people creating the set up where you need a degree to even apply

It’s hard to comment on so little information.
Perhaps they interviewed him and really liked him so were willing to overlook lower grades?

Maybe he had an excellent personal statement with related experience?

Perhaps he was eligible for a contextual offer?

Or the course under recruited and they dropped the grade requirements to fill places

🤷🏼‍♀️

Why were the 21 year olds crap but the 18 year olds good? Are you suggesting they lost their minds during those 3 years

I know that he didn't do an interview. He told me that.

He said that he and many others on the course, got into the course without the required grades.

He said it was because the Uni needed students.

Totally agree OP. It's utter bollox.

Never mind unis. The very notion of A levels is a pile of crap.

A 16 year old studying only 3 subjects for 2 whole years is absurd. At that age they need breadth, not depth. Especially because most of them have no idea what they want to do. But also because the job market has been in a state of flux for years.

I really cannot understand why the standard is not a baccalaureate system. Ah, that's right, that's only for postcode lottery/actual lottery winners 😒.

I kind of agree with you OP.
DS (17) left school last year, with 7 good GCSE’s. He went straight to work as a KP, then progressed to trainee chef. He’s learning to drive, has £££ in his bank and working in busy restaurant environment. He’s saving for a house and is very happy.

DD slogged her guts out at college to study 3 A levels. She’s now at university and obviously the debt is mounting.

👏 👏

They probably did. But it will also be far more nuanced.

The course/uni will have decided what their bottom line was and will have accepted applicants who met that. Student's who have applied to them and made them their firm choice are a safer bet than unknown clearing students.
It still doesn't translate to 'they'll take anyone'.

Well yeah, getting a university education cost money.

The grades needed reflecting the popularity of the course is also a bit odd. I understand its a market but it implies you need that grade to do the course, rather than its a filter as too many applicabts. My sons course was very popular so asks for high grades, same department, same uni, less popular course and its lower grade.

Why is it odd? It can be both things, a way to position themselves in the market but also a requirement to study a particular subject. Some subjects specify specific grades in specific subjects because they need to know that students have that level of knowledge. For other courses it's less prescriptive but by asking for high grades they are, in theory, going to attract higher calibre candidates.

I know that. It’s very expensive and more so, depending on where you study.

Living costs and tuition fees are two different things though.

The cost of tuition is well below what it actually costs a university to run a UG degree course. We lose money on UG students.

Yes im sure it can be both things.

But the fact that many courses drop the grades needed for some students on results day, means it is much less about the prerequites of the course because if you really needed an A in whatever to do the course, they couldn't say ok but these people need the B to do it.

I think the whole thing is a silly way to do it. Universities put high grades in for offers to raise the calibre, colleges predict grades on an optimistic basis so people can apply, then lots of people get in to courses not having met the offer - but lots of other people who got the same lower grades didn't apply because thier predictions were more accurate. Thats before you get to clearing.

Do other countries do it like this? I genuinely dont know

Entry requirements are a way of positioning themselves in the market. They've always been flexible and a moveable feast. It helps students filter institutions and allows a university to communicate what sort of grades they'll consider.
In a competitive market they move less but in the current climate we're seeing much more flexibility.

Some courses don't ask for specific subjects and work on UCAS points. These are the ones that tend to have much more flexibility.
if a university specifies subjects and grades they are likely to be less flexible - but that doesn't mean they won't be flexible. They'll have an agreed bottom line which will be influenced by the market conditions ( national results and application numbers). This will change every year so you can't bank on a university accepting students who have dropped a grade.

Ah so UG courses are running at a loss?
I just see DD fork out £750 pcm for a room in a shared flat ( that she’s not yet living in) and think “ crikey”.

I know why she has to pay and it probably wouldn’t be any cheaper if she was working and renting.

I pray she earns well going forward!

Yep, a more realistic fee level would be around the £15k mark. It's why universities are so reliant on international students.

Is the accommodation privately owned or owned by the university?

I read that uni really need to charge £12.5k per year, which may be better than this mad scramble to put bums on seats.

I did a degree over 30 years ago at a low ranking uni when it was free - I would not go now and would look for a degree apprenticeship as I was a mediocre student.

My son is going in a few weeks. However, I feel it's an investment as he achieved top grades and going to a competitive uni. I don't see huge grade drops for top 10 unis.

Yes I did wonder about the financial input of the overseas students. From what you are saying, universities depend on them?

DD was in university accommodation in year 1, at £210 per week. Years and 3, privately owned and managed by a letting agent.

To be fair, the accommodation has been decent ( compared to that of some of her friends studying round the country).

It's been this way forever. A thousand years ago, I got into an undersubscribed course in an extremely good university (then and now). I'm bloody delighted it works that way! I had a shit few years and underperformed at A-level. The course suited me much more than my A-leave subjects and I graduated at the top end.

I do however suffer with massive imposter syndrome. Like I shouldn't have been allowed in to such a good place despite having completed the degree along with people who got much higher grades.

This. Hospitality degree to work in Starbucks.

@Applebun WRT “anyone getting in” - I think that applies in the main to the “lesser” universities/those low down league tables. You’d be unlikely to get into a Russell Group uni without achieving higher grades. Unless it was a course which was very under subscribed which would be rare.

International students subsidise home students.
We’re in an impossible situation. We’re prevented from increasing home UG fees (the slight increase this year has been completely wiped out by NI increases) and our government policy isn’t particularly friendly to international students.

We’re told to operate as a business in a free market but forced to make a loss on our main ‘product’.
I’ve worked in universities for 20 years both in professional services and now as an academic and head of division. I’ve never known it so bad.

This. Hospitality degree to work in Starbucks.

Overused yet unsubstantiated myth.

The vast majority of graduates are in professional level jobs or further study 15months after graduation. The majority of those that aren’t, are working in a role which fits with their career plan and is likely to lead to a professional level job in the near future.
The idea that thousands of graduates are working Starbucks/mcdonalds/Burger King is utter bollocks.

A really interesting report came out this week on the public perceptions of higher education. It found that the general public hugely overestimates graduate ‘regret’ and the impact of student debt and also massively underestimates the economic contribution of the uk higher education sector on the uk economy.

The report challenges a number of commonly held views on Mumsnet.

Ok but your son has a very low income ceiling, kitchen staff work long hours in a stressful physical job and do not earn well even after many years, unless they are extremely lucky. DH and I both worked in restaurants for years, its a hard life and not one I'd recommend to most people.

Your DD may be in debt now but assuming she's doing a reasonable course she stands to have a higher income and easier life.