To think that the education system is mad

[Applebun]

What is the point of A levels, when you don't need the grades anyway.

Everyone I know this year who did A levels, told me that if they didn't get the grades that they needed, the University still offered them a place anyway.

Eg the Uni says you must get ABB to get into the course. The student got CCC. The student was offered a place in the Uni anway.

I was talking to my colleague about it. He said that he got really bad grades in his A levels, way lower than what was required to get in, and the Uni still let him in to the course straight away.

The point then is - what is the point of A levels at all.
The Unis want paying students to go to their Uni to keep them going. A lot of them let any student in, no matter what grades they get.

So why make students go through the farcical system of A levels?

Keen to hear your actual ideas for improvement OP beyond people doing a trade apprentiship instead of university.

It depends on the uni and the degree, I dropped a grade talking about 26 years ago, in my main A-levels I got AAC I needed AAB, but I also did general studies in which I got a B and an A/S level in RE in which I got a B, (don’t ask why lol I imagine I may have got my 3 As if I just focussed)! Anyway the uni saw I’m from a working class background, immigrant, 1st gen to go to Uni and they are an RG uni and thought let’s let her in! So yeah I got my place.

My nephew has ADHD he also dropped a grade this year but got into uni.

Regarding apprenticeships - the place where my DH works has stopped taking graduate apprenticeships because they had such poor skill levels and basically couldn't do anything in a workplace setting. They are now taking people at 18 straight from school into the same apprenticeships instead.

Whether a degree is still worth it is very much up for debate.

There is also this proliferation of degrees offering unconditional places (or there was when my DD applied 4 years ago) She was applying for courses which needed AAA and one of the universities offered her CCC, which she didn't accept as she felt it devalued the course and she was predicted A*s. I heard from her that quite a few of these offers were coming out.

Though back in the day Oxbridge offered you EE if they wanted you.

To learn stuff?

What an incredibly reductive view of education you have!

And those students getting onto those courses with those low grades are doing themselves no favours.

It’s all about money, of course!

Many years ago a friend of mine took a job teaching in an Irish university which accepted a fair number of rich Americans for one-year of their degree. He wasn’t “allowed” to fail any of them, even if he suspected plagiarism and even if they were hopeless. He found it very demoralising.

That attitude of commercial common sense prevails in the tertiary education system; it has to because the sector has limited ways of generating revenue.

The reality is that we have too many universities in the UK. It was always a horrible mistake to replace the good, practical education provided by polytechnics and encourage everyone to pursue a very expensive and often inappropriate academic path. Modern apprenticeships really do not fill the gap. And so now we are stuck with a lot of struggling universities and devalued degrees. Many universities are cutting modules to save money (you can run fewer lectures and classes by forcing all your students to choose between 3 modules instead of 5, that means you can sack lecturers).

Nowadays I would not take a humanities or social science degree at any university, however good. I would only pursue a course that appeared to lead directly towards the workplace.

I broadly agree with pp that a degree should only be undertaken nowadays if you have a really clear idea where it leads you. Otherwise enter a trade.

I completely agree

@rocketrabbit my dh has the same situation, working in financial services. His firm prefers to attract 18 yo apprentices straight from school - they are more teachable and their immaturity is compensated by the fact that they don’t turn up with the arrogance of someone who has a RG university degree and feels that the early years of their training contract ask them to do work they find tedious and demeaning. When I trained in finance I understood there was a method behind the way we were being trained and that hard graft (60 hour weeks at work plus study) were part of the process of getting me ready for my career. Far too many graduates turn up nowadays with a dreadful attitude and the 60 hour weeks were got rid of ages ago and the workplace situation has swung round with most trainees basically having the attitude that the employer is there to serve their career development interests but having no desire to put any effort in themselves. I am increasingly drawn to conclude that a degree does a lot of young people a huge disservice and that is having a negative effect of productivity in Britain.

Agree @daffodilandtulip , there's value in learning. I am out of practice now, being out of formal education for over thirty years, but would love to do an Open University course in Art History. Unfortunately, I don't qualify for assistance, but I can't afford it either! I only do my professional qualifications now, required by the Office of Rail & Road and the DfT.

My cousin's husband, recently passed, was a lifelong student, holding down several social care jobs during his life, whilst continuously doing courses in his free time. I think that's admirable.

(Edited for spellings & typos)

@OopsNoHoliday my DH is in a finance related organisation

This can happen sometimes, but it depends on the course, the university and the year. It certainly doesn’t happen all the time, and knowing some anecdotes doesn’t make that the case.

There’s nothing wrong with University and it isn’t a “con” like some posters here say. The problems are that education has been commodified, and good jobs are often competitive - that’s what makes people feel aggrieved.

And for everyone saying “do a trade” - of course these are valid and valuable. But both my dad and brother started out in those, and later decided to go to university. They didn’t enjoy the trade environment or the work, and are much happier with their jobs post university.

As others have said, universities aren’t letting EVERYONE in. However this year, more than ever, higher ranked institutions have been more flexible in their entry requirements. This is purely financial because most universities are in financial dire straits.

You should be complaining about the system that has resulted in universities being so desperate for students rather than the fact students sit A levels.

A levels and the exam system and applying with PGs is a terrible system. The example you site is the need for ‘bums on seats’ and most top rated unis do not do that, but it seems society has been convinced that to make it you need a degree, when in fact most jobs do not, so all these unis exist and financially are in trouble.
It definitely need reform.

Ripping off foreign students? In what way do universities rip off international students?

If your lecturer relative is telling the truth then they are in the minority. Very few universities or courses are full to the point then can’t fit them in the lecture theatres. They should be grateful as it will mean your relative keeps their job this year.

Depends on the University and/or course doesn't it?
For example, I wouldn't imagine medicine is a course you'd get on without the required grades.

They do now, lots of RG universities are in financial trouble

Firstly, universities don't just universally let students in regardless of whether they've got their offer grades. Secondly they generally only do so if it's a near miss. Plus it's no secret that applications are down and universities are struggling financially, so they need bums on seats.

Also, to an extent, predicted grades act as a proxy for real grades (even though predicted grades aren't that reliable). So universities theoretically know the quality of a candidate before they actually even do their exams. I agree that this isn't a good system, but the solution isn't to 'not bother putting students through A Levels', it's to scrap predictions and for students to apply to uni when they get their results. I believe this is the system in lots of countries.

But they didn’t all. Many courses at top unis did not drop grades or dropped by the regular one grade.
we just hear of the ones that did drop.

its specifically a NOW issue due to the drop in international students.

separately I think A-levels are trying crap though. To be assessed and have your future tied in up in a single sitting of exams is frankly ridiculous. It reflects nothing in the world of work. That is not the skill we need in the workforce. Many countries have a far more sophisticated and balanced method of assessment where the student knowledge and ability is measured by a whole metric of assessment types. Written, projects, presentations, real life applications, tests and discussions. These reflect how knowledge would be applied irl.

countries in Asia like ours base purely on a final exam. It’s not healthy and it’s not a great measure of modern skills we need. It produces top performers who have a singular type of skill set. One that excels in exams. But isn’t necessarily identifying those with extraordinary problem solving, advanced communication, adaptability, flexibility and cross discipline lateral skills.

It depends on the university. The more academically rigorous do not do this.

They do now …

RG and high ranked universities have been a lot more flexible on their entry requirements this year. The knock on effect means lower ranked institutions are screwed.

We get the education system we deserve. If you tell universities they have to act like businesses in the 'product' they deliver, that they must meet ever increasingly onerous standards and legal obligations to students 'the customers' but give them absolutely no control over what they can charge to deliver that product - (in fact refuse to allow a raise in prices for 13 years), and at the same time reduce access to income from intenational students, this is what you get

Absolutely, I don't know why people blame universities instead of government policy!

The current admissions system really makes no sense though, as someone not originally from the UK it seems massively inefficient and also a bit crazy that students only find out a few weeks in advance where they'll be spending the next three years.

Ok OP so your colleague who got CCC - which uni was this and what course?

I don't get this, your nephew has ADHD and because of this he got his place despite missing his grades?

Though back in the day Oxbridge offered you EE if they wanted you.
Back in that day you had to take their entrance exam in the fourth or seventh term of your A levels, plus have in-person interviews, before they made their offer.
The EE offer was to be sure that you could 'matriculate', or so I understand.
(Seventh term applicants had already taken their A levels, and continued at school for another term. They then had 2 'gap' terms.)

separately I think A-levels are trying crap though. To be assessed and have your future tied in up in a single sitting of exams is frankly ridiculous.
There were modular exams in A level Maths and many other subjects for many years until relatively recently. At least half of the compulsory papers in Maths were for Pure Maths, with Applied topics usually chosen for the optional papers. Exam sittings were in January and May/June.
Students could see how well they were doing in real rather than mock exams, and adjust their expectations. They were also helpful when teachers were predicting grades.

I know he went to Cardiff. Sorry I didn't ask him exactly what course he did, and he is not at work today