To have tried to explain to DN (ASD) about being kind ?

[yesImfat]

DN is 9 and has ASD. She’s lovely and we see her a lot so she’s very comfortable with me BUT she is exceptionally honest. To the point it can come across as rudeness, i understand this but today she was fixated on my appearance.

From the moment we arrived she kept saying how fat I looked. That I’m ’super Big’ and ‘super fat’ and that my dress was so huge. At first I tried to say something back that might trigger some awareness eg when she said my dress was so huge I said ‘you’re wearing a dress too! I really like yours it has a lovely pattern - you look beautiful’ as I thought keeping it about a dress and then giving her a compliment might make her think ‘oh she’s mentioned my dress and made me feel happy as she likes it’ but she kept saying how her dress looked better as she isn’t fat 🤦

Then she told me that my hair looked ‘funny’ and what was wrong with it as it didn’t look nice. Then started on the fat comments again and said I’m very wobbly and fat. I (calmly and in an even tone) said to her ‘I know that I’m bigger than most people you know and I’m actually trying to be healthier. When you keep telling me I’m fat and huge it really hurts my feelings’ to which she said ‘but you ARE fat? You’re VERY fat!’

I explained again ‘I know that you are just saying what you can see and yes, I am big but I would like you to stop saying it as it is really hurting my feelings and isn’t kind at all. While I’m here I want you to just think it if you need to rather than say it to me as it’s not kind to be rude about people and how they look’

Dsis and Db went absolutely crazy and told me that it’s not her fault she is just saying what she sees and she can’t understand that she shouldn’t due to her ASD? Now I’m worried I’ve done the wrong thing ? But they were in the room and didnt step in at any point ? AIBU ? Was I wrong to tell her to be kind ?

You did the right thing in the moment. Her parents are going to do her no favours as she's going to offend a lot of people. She just needs to learn things a different way. I have no idea whether your explanation was ideal, but it was better than nothing - she won't know she's hurting people unless she has someone to tell her.

Also, it's okay that you were upset - we can ask people to be tolerant to a point but 'nobody in the room should have any reaction to being insulted' is not a legitimate access need or reasonable adjustment, I'm sorry. It wouldn't have been OK to get angry, but being upset and being honest about that is completely fine. If the parents want to work on different skills they can ask you not to correct her (it doesn't sound like they've given you any idea what they want tbh) but they can't ask you not to have any feelings about what she's saying. That's unrealistic.

Sorry but ASD is not an excuse for being unkind which is what your DN was by calling you fat. Her parents need to stop making excuses for her and help her to understand about how words can hurt other people.

My ASD DD is very black and white and super honest. But she knows that it’s not kind to talk about how people look so full stop she knows she isn’t to do it unless it’s to give someone a compliment.

However, if I outright asked her if I looked nice, she wouldn’t be able to lie if she thought I didn’t. I therefore don’t ask! But am always especially touched if she gives me a compliment because I then know she truly means it 💕

I wonder where this myth comes from that people with autism dont or cant lie? It gets repeated a lot. Its not true.

Way too many words and abstract concepts.
Just say " no comments or questions about body and head", and if she starts, cut if off with " remember, no comments or questions about body and head" and then move to something else, an activity, a book, a game.

Genuine and non goady question (I don't know much about Autism)

A 9 year old autistic girl must (I assume) get upset about things that some people say to her

Is it possible to explain to her that ..... Emma says X to you and you get upset .....this is the same feeling that Auntie Jean gets when you call her fat

Is that 'compare and contrast' exercise something autistic children can grasp?

Again - no edge or goadiness to this question
I'm genuinely interested

Interesting but I think you are looking at it from a NT pov. I mentioned my DS up thread and how i taught him not to talk about people rather then to ‘be kind’ due to him not being able to understand the latter. He would also be completely unbothered by anything that was said to him.

Its interesting that people have mentioned friends and even jobs when talking about OPDD, we don’t know if she is going to have either of those things; but the level of expectation people have is always pitted against the average NT child. Autistic kids don’t always have friends, often they do but sometimes they get along fine without. I think saying ‘what will she do when she has a job’ is ridiculous about any 9 year old tbh, they have years of learning and maturing to do before they reach that stage.

I found this really helpful and validating - I've got a similar child. With the help of a therapist we've got a family code word that means "nope! gone too far!" which has really helped.

I have adhd and maybe some autism and I seem to notice fatness, oddities, cleavage, and have to tell myself to ignore, also tattoos, unusual clothing - maybe it’s because I have a brain constantly taking in everything. I also notice scenery, birdsong, damaged trees, front gardens …. That the people I’m with haven’t noticed (to their detriment imv).

She needs reminded not to comment or stare (even about the rest of it in my case as people just look at you blankly as they’re not interested ).

First comment is spot on. As a woman with ASD, I really struggled learning these skills as a tween/ teen and it led to a lot of bullying.

I've always held that having ASD may be a reason for not getting something, but people are not obliged to be ok/ forgive you if you hurt their feelings. It is important to learn these boundaries.

Yes I know.

I have an autistic child myself (tween) and have just finished two years of teaching a young person who never really learnt to mask, and as a result had no friends in school at all (the other students were kind and tolerant, but no-one likes repeatedly being told they're stupid).

You know society judges these behaviours and knowing why they occur doesn't make it less hurtful to be called fat or stupid.

It's developmental. DD1 (19), I would say, quite simply couldn't lie until she was 13 or so. If she said x, x had happened and I would die on that hill. Then the world got so much more complicated and society expected her to cope with issues that are way beyond her ability to understand. Her brain simply can't cope, and she says things that reflect her distress rather than reality.

The reason I say that, rather than 'she lies' is that she genuinely believes that what she's saying is the truth, even in light of hard evidence that something couldn't have happened. To give a mild example:

DD1 gets very fatigued and goes to bed very early. If she goes to bed too early, she ends up awake in that night and a vicious circle starts. So we have a rule that she can't go to bed before 7.30 pm.

Last night she was a little dysregulated because she'd got fixated on going to a theme park and we can't just take her because she needs an access pass which must be applied for from an external company, then we must give 7 days notice that she needs a disabled ride pass each time we visit. This is upsetting for her and she doesn't really understand it (LD). She wanted to go to bed but it was too early. She came to me and said that DH was being really mean and that she'd asked to go to bed and he'd said she couldn't. We talked about why she has a bed time. She said 'yeah but he's so mean - all I asked was to go to bed and he told me to fuck off and go away.' Fortunately, I know that DH doesn't ever use that language. In fact, he doesn't swear at all. So I knew it wasn't true. So I said to DD1 "Did Daddy really use those words?" and she said "well he didn't use those actual words but that's what it felt like." I called down to DH and he said 'I asked her to wait 10 minutes'.

DD1 wasn't lying in the traditional sense. She was communicating what the impact of being told she couldn't go to bed was on her. She has no ability to see that what she says can have an impact on other people.

You are correct and they are failing her by making no effort to teach her that sometimes thing we say can hurt people’s feelings even if they’re honest.

she has to love and interact with other people and 9 is a perfectly good age to start reminding and reinforcing this in a safe space.

I can only speak for my own child but absolutely no, that wouldn't work. She believes she's the only person with feelings I think.

She's quite mercenary so I absolutely could say: you know how last time you said Auntie Hilda was fat? Make NO personal remarks about how anyone looks/speaks/dresses this time and there's a fiver in it for you...

Tbh if I loved Auntie Hilda I'd do what it takes!

My concern here is that DSis and DBIL are not in fact nice people.

“You must not make comments about how people look. It’s rude”.

But nothing needs to be said at all in these situations. OP didnt ask her niece if she looked nice so there was no expectation to lie. Perhaps the note is to not comment on people's appearances (good or bad).

OP you approached it sensitively and mindfully, her parents arent doing her any favours by not attempting to help her navigate these things. There's a girl in DDs class who is nasty about a visual disability DD has, and people say DD is mean for not wanting to play with this child or invite her over. To a young girl its hurtful to hear no matter how much you understand it isnt the child's fault they say it as such, its okay to draw up personal boundaries.

There has to at least be an attempt to manage this behaviour. I agree with PP that even those who are understanding of autism will still struggle with a person saying hurtful things to them and start to withdraw.

That would only work for mine if it was the same thing. Emma says you're dumb and you get upset, so don't call Auntie Jean dumb or she'll be upset - that would work. But Emma calls you dumb so you shouldn't say that Auntie Jean is fat would make no sense to her at all.

I think you did you right thing, although it's hard to judge her level of cognition.

I have one child with diagnosed neurodiversity and one with possible ADHD. You did nothing wrong and that's how I talk to my DCs.
My DS now whispers to me if he wants to make comments on appearance. He's actually quite subtle (for him).

DS learned this at 7 before his diagnosis while the referral was in its early days. A child commented to him that his hair was long in an uncomplimentary way. DS responded back with the factual observation that the child was fat. Child complained to the leaders of the activity. Child appologised to DS for his comment. DS ended up in further trouble because he'd stated the truth, other child started it and he didn't see a need to appologise.

We ended up having a conversation spelling out that there are some observations that while true, do not need spelling out and that society's rules are not consistent. Society rates weight differently to other descriptions like height, hair, eye colour. It might not make sense to him, but that's the way society works, and sometimes just acknowledging these inconsistencies can help.

It's awkward to have a simple blanket rule because people do comment on appearance. Sometimes compliments about appearence are desirable and even expected. Critique can be acceptable in specific circumstances e.g. if putting an outfit together/ shopping, but the same comment not acceptable in a different situation such as when dressed and out.

While autism makes these subtlties of social ranking of comment harder to understand and some individuals will struggle or not be able to learn and apply them, many individuals can learn them when they're spelled out and discussed. It can often take longer to learn, but to not attempt to teach a high functioning child is failing them and making it harder for them to function in society which is already a challenge.

You were in the right. She was being very rude and her parents should have stepped in. They absolutely need to teach her social skills. All kids need to be taught them but a child with ASD will likely need more explanation and take longer to grasp it. It’s awful they haven’t even tried and are blaming you in this situation

This is so interesting and reminds me of another one of my daughters (I have 3 neurodivergent children!)

We found it really hard to teach her to say thank you, for example. It wasn't until a friend of mine said to her "if you say thank you for a present then the person will be more likely to give you a present another time" that she got it. And totally got it!

Whereas for me, also an autistic person, the idea of something I said/did making someone think badly of me would probably have been the main motivator. But I think what you said about "she thinks she's the only one who has feelings" is very familiar about my daughter.

Tell her that regardless of what she thinks, she keeps her opinions to herself and not make personal remarks about or to other people.

My daughter is 9 with asd and can be very blunt and matter of fact but you were right to address it and I would be the same by explaining like you have about feelings.