To have tried to explain to DN (ASD) about being kind ?

[yesImfat]

DN is 9 and has ASD. She’s lovely and we see her a lot so she’s very comfortable with me BUT she is exceptionally honest. To the point it can come across as rudeness, i understand this but today she was fixated on my appearance.

From the moment we arrived she kept saying how fat I looked. That I’m ’super Big’ and ‘super fat’ and that my dress was so huge. At first I tried to say something back that might trigger some awareness eg when she said my dress was so huge I said ‘you’re wearing a dress too! I really like yours it has a lovely pattern - you look beautiful’ as I thought keeping it about a dress and then giving her a compliment might make her think ‘oh she’s mentioned my dress and made me feel happy as she likes it’ but she kept saying how her dress looked better as she isn’t fat 🤦

Then she told me that my hair looked ‘funny’ and what was wrong with it as it didn’t look nice. Then started on the fat comments again and said I’m very wobbly and fat. I (calmly and in an even tone) said to her ‘I know that I’m bigger than most people you know and I’m actually trying to be healthier. When you keep telling me I’m fat and huge it really hurts my feelings’ to which she said ‘but you ARE fat? You’re VERY fat!’

I explained again ‘I know that you are just saying what you can see and yes, I am big but I would like you to stop saying it as it is really hurting my feelings and isn’t kind at all. While I’m here I want you to just think it if you need to rather than say it to me as it’s not kind to be rude about people and how they look’

Dsis and Db went absolutely crazy and told me that it’s not her fault she is just saying what she sees and she can’t understand that she shouldn’t due to her ASD? Now I’m worried I’ve done the wrong thing ? But they were in the room and didnt step in at any point ? AIBU ? Was I wrong to tell her to be kind ?

How is she if others are as 'brutally honestly back? If someone said, " that's a horrible way to behave and you'll be lucky if anyone wants to be friends with you if that's how you speak to them" ? Would she be upset by that?

Oh for goodness sake. I’m not advocating for unkindness fgs.

Girls have been brought up to ‘be kind’ and ‘be polite’ and it has resulted in generations of women who have developed into anxious people pleasers and domestic doormats. Somehow boys don’t get that message - they’re told to be bold and adventurous and please themselves. This is why it’s a bit more nuanced than just teaching ‘be kind’ - especially if she’s ASD.

‘Being kind’ isn’t always a helpful priority for females in this world. If you don’t know that then I suggest you educate yourself.

You acted perfectly and were very measured!
You didn't say anything wrong at all and I like how you were considerate about not hurting her whilst still describing how it made you feel. * *

Yes I take this approach. I tell my kids that how people look isn't important and that's why we don't mention it, because who people are inside is what matters. They seem to get this way of putting it. It's not the same as hiding your feelings. It's just about explaining things in a way that makes sense to your child.

@Screamingabdabz I think that boys do get this message. My DS (16) has learnt to introduce himself to people, shake hands and be polite, it’s not that unusual, most of his friends do it.

In fact I noticed recently that one of them doesn’t speak to me and commented on it to DS. He’s the only one who doesn’t have pretty good manners tbh.

This child happens to be a girl, thats all. We should be teaching all children to be kind, gentle, considerate and courteous.

No need to get on a soap box when its completely irrelevant to the thread, the child was rude, needs telling not to be rude, girl or boy it doesnt make any difference

She isnt being taught not to assert her own needs when necessary or to live at the detriment of others, she is being taught not to bad mouth people

I think you were absolutely right and they need to try to teach her, it might not be as easy because it obviously doesn't come naturally to her but she does need to learn how not to be rude and hurtful.

The problem is that it's your niece not your child. If her parents are not teaching her social skills at all, then she's going to struggle. I say this as a parent of a child with ASC who knows not to comment like this.

I think you handled it ok but it's not going to work if her parents don't tell her she's doing anything wrong. They should not be going mad at you either.

My daughter has a complex diagnosis including ASD, you did nothing wrong- you did what the parents should be doing..

My dc have adhd and asd and are blunt to a fault. However I have done exactly the same as you.

I did quite a few social stories with one dc to teach him society appropriate responses.

We taught dc to go with - do not comment on peoples appearances in general then you can't go wrong.

They didnt always understand why commenting on a factual things would hurt someone feelings. We did quite a bit of role play. I often went over situations that happened at school.

They now get thats its a rule that you dont call people fat even when they are as it can make the person sad. They are def understanding this better as teens as they are now having a couple of hang ups about their own appearances

You did approach it in the wrong way.

I explained again ‘I know that you are just saying what you can see and yes, I am big but I would like you to stop saying it as it is really hurting my feelings and isn’t kind at all. While I’m here I want you to just think it if you need to rather than say it to me as it’s not kind to be rude about people and how they look’

That's way too convoluted for an ASD 9yo and likely well beyond her skill set at the moment as it relies on her having a much more advanced theory of mind than she currently has.

Keep it simple. "The rules in my house are we don't comment on someone's appearance unless it's something they can change in ten seconds."

So we can comment if they have toothpaste on their chin, loo roll stuck to their shoe, a t-shirt inside out. But not if they are fat, short, thin, tall, spotty etc.

You probably managed a textbook example of how to do it right and teach social awareness.

If they don't teach her to keep negative opinions to herself she's going to have a very rough ride as she gets older. She will upset people and they won't like her. Then they will blame the other kids for being unkind to the autistic child when really they are reacting to her upsetting them.

In my experience with my dd (ASD and ADHD) it was important to be very clear and direct. "If you say X it will upset people and then they won't want to be your friend." You need to be clear and logical and explain why.

So YANBU at all. You're a good aunty.

Clear rules:
If it can't be fixed in 2 minutes, don't tell them.
And - say something nice along with the criticism "You always have such a great smile, but right now you've a wee bit of lipstick on your teeth"

She needs a “ Think it don’t say it” intervention.
They can work on this in school but very easy to do at home.
You have a thought bubble or head outline with a though bubble and an image of lips or a speech bubble. The activity is then to sort prepared statements. Materials will be available online but you can make your own.
Statements would be compliments or general questions and others insults, nasty or rude remarks.
Once embedded parents/ staff can then use a reminder to “think it don’t say it! “
In addition a social story could be used.
I know it can be difficult to transfer skills, so her ability to sort statements correctly won’t necessarily transfer to actual situations.

Yes you’re right it’s really hard I think that’s why i initially tried to make my point by also making a dress comment but one that would make her feel happy but it didn’t work ! I felt so embarrassed it was really tricky and she’s a Lovely girl but it just went on and on and nobody else was intervening and it was so awkward 😭

Thankyou I had no idea what to say and that was the first thing I could think of. I didn’t want to leave her with no explanation but maybe something direct is better.

What you did was 100% right. She NEEDS to learn not to say that sort of thing if she ever wants friends in the future. So so many teenage girls are really sensitive about their weight and physical appearance, and would find her comment VERY hurtful. The reality is MOST teenagers, even the most empathetic ones who maybe are ok with a disabled peer being a little unusual, are going to draw the line at having anything to do with someone who makes really hurtful comments.

I think you handled it beautifully @yesImfat. You explained gently to the child that it hurt your feelings which was perfect. Your brother or Sil should have intervened when it was obvious that your DN didn't stop.

They ought to have told her with a firm voice that "Auntie told you that it hurts her feelings when you say that she is fat so you are not allowed to say that. And actually you shouldn't say that to anyone because it's very rude. We don't talk about people's bodies at all."

I have an autistic child who ofcourse have been blunt and said things that hurt people. I have just told him not to say those things. If he still goes on I have been very stern with him basically telling him that it doesn't matter whether it's true or you understand why you shouldn't say it- I have told you it hurts feelings so stop it right now or you won't get pudding this evening/whatever.

It's awful to just let a child say hurtful things just because they are autistic. How is she supposed to socialise if she doesn't know how to behave correctly? Sounds like lazy parenting to me.

Her parents just sat there and said nothing? That’s madness.

I have two autistic children, complete opposites of one another.
My daughter has no filter, can say exactly what she is thinking which of course can result in her being very rude. She is pulled up on it and corrected EVERY TIME. She went through a phase of commenting whenever she saw an extremely overweight person. Never directly to them but she would ask us in her extremely loud voice, ‘MOM, WHY IS THAT MAN (enthusiastic pointing) SO FAT/GINORMOUS/HUGE?’ ‘DAD, LOOK AT THAT FAT WOMAN’. Every time she was told that what she was saying was inappropriate, it hurt the persons feelings and she had to apologise if the person heard her, as we did too.

She went to school with a child who had dwarfism as did both his parents and every time she saw the dad (never the mum or child) she would say, ‘MOM LOOK THERE’S HENRY’S SMALL DAD!’ ‘HENRY’S DAD IS JUST SO LITTLE!’

She can also comment on baldness especially if it’s not the norm to her (such as a bald child) or if someone has a very obvious physical disability, she can comment loudly but it is never to be intentionally nasty, the baldness and disability comments tend to be curious ones just in a very loud voice which again she is corrected for doing so. How else will she learn?

The comments have become less over time (she’s 11 now) and she has become quite good at correcting herself or stopping mid sentence. your dn is 9, she is old enough to be told, it should have been consistently corrected from day 1.

I hate when parents use their child’s ASD as an excuse for everything and opt out of parenting because ‘well they’re autistic’. The children still need to be taught right from wrong, they need consequences, they need praise and yes, it is a thousand times harder parenting an autistic child but it isn’t optional because they have a diagnosis. The right techniques, consistency and a hell of a lot of effort needs to be used.

You didn’t do anything wrong op and your dn’s parents certainly aren’t doing her any favours, I’m sure she’ll learn this lesson the hard way some day. I wouldn’t be complementing her in return though (I understand your thinking that it may alter her train of thought) I’d ask her to stop and then leave if she didn’t and if her parents didn’t intervene.

I get that it may be the easier option to just ‘let it be’ rather than the potential 1hr+ meltdown that may ensue from correcting behaviour or being hit, bitten or kicked, I’ve been there! But sorry, to me, it’s just not optional.

I wouldn’t have spoken about being kind but I would have told her it’s rude to speak about how others look.

I think you were a little too nice and explained too much. Sometimes all it takes is saying, we don't comment on people's appearance, now stop being so damn rude.

I have 2 with asd so I get how blunt they can be but a simple, no exceptions rule that we do not comment on people's size/weight will cover most bases.

Especially at that age. They say the truth hurts, well, the truth will get the stuffing kicked out of her if she acts like that at secondary school.

Kind / Unkind is too abstract I think - it requires the child not only to put themselves in someone else's shoes (would I be hurt by this) but also to extend that to another perspective (even if I would NOT be hurt by this, is it possible that another person may find it hurtful? What are the factors which might cause them to be hurt by it, and are they present or absent in this person? Is my relationship with them close enough or not to say the thing, and if it is, how do I moderate my tone to indicate "close and jokey" rather than "being mean"?)

I agree with others that you needed to say something, and I can completely understand you being put on the back foot and using the first thing you can think of. The ten second rule has been really helpful for my autistic DD to have a clear guideline on when personal comments are (usually) okay.

And I may be cynical but I would bet money to dung that she had overheard it from her parents which would explain their embarrassment and her confusion at being corrected when she repeated it.

I agree @stichguru. She’s the one who’ll suffer if her parents don’t teach her social skills.

OMG. Your sister and BIL are horrible and have no manners - hence neither does their child.

I have an AuDHD girl and she has said some awful things to me and DH, including about our physical appearance, when in the grip of a
strong emotion, but there is absolutely no way she would insult anyone else like that.