To have tried to explain to DN (ASD) about being kind ?

[yesImfat]

DN is 9 and has ASD. She’s lovely and we see her a lot so she’s very comfortable with me BUT she is exceptionally honest. To the point it can come across as rudeness, i understand this but today she was fixated on my appearance.

From the moment we arrived she kept saying how fat I looked. That I’m ’super Big’ and ‘super fat’ and that my dress was so huge. At first I tried to say something back that might trigger some awareness eg when she said my dress was so huge I said ‘you’re wearing a dress too! I really like yours it has a lovely pattern - you look beautiful’ as I thought keeping it about a dress and then giving her a compliment might make her think ‘oh she’s mentioned my dress and made me feel happy as she likes it’ but she kept saying how her dress looked better as she isn’t fat 🤦

Then she told me that my hair looked ‘funny’ and what was wrong with it as it didn’t look nice. Then started on the fat comments again and said I’m very wobbly and fat. I (calmly and in an even tone) said to her ‘I know that I’m bigger than most people you know and I’m actually trying to be healthier. When you keep telling me I’m fat and huge it really hurts my feelings’ to which she said ‘but you ARE fat? You’re VERY fat!’

I explained again ‘I know that you are just saying what you can see and yes, I am big but I would like you to stop saying it as it is really hurting my feelings and isn’t kind at all. While I’m here I want you to just think it if you need to rather than say it to me as it’s not kind to be rude about people and how they look’

Dsis and Db went absolutely crazy and told me that it’s not her fault she is just saying what she sees and she can’t understand that she shouldn’t due to her ASD? Now I’m worried I’ve done the wrong thing ? But they were in the room and didnt step in at any point ? AIBU ? Was I wrong to tell her to be kind ?

OP, you sound like a really kind and thoughtful aunt. My older child is a similar age and has ASD. He does this kind of thing too and I agree with others that her parents need to step up here. I would have corrected her in that situation.

My DC doesn’t really understand, on a fairly fundamental level, that other people have feelings too, despite being very sensitive about his own feelings and expecting others to act accordingly. We are treating empathy as a learned skill - it’s going to be a long road but he is better than a couple of years ago. I will say that if he thinks I’m being evasive, he really zones in on it - I have something I’m physically self-conscious about and he has picked up on that and will not stop asking me about it. Your DN may have something similar going on here.

I agree with others about keeping it simple and direct. The rule in our house is that we don’t comment on people’s bodies/appearances where they can hear us - so if you’re curious about why someone has a particular physical feature, that’s fine, but you ask the question at home/in the car/once the person is out of earshot.

If she’s like me, she will be lamping them back.
I never started a fight, but I sure as hell ended it.

No one who hits you is a friend, so no loss there.

We do find friends, usually other autistic people where if you say
“that top makes you look fat and it’s a bit like a circus tent”
the reply is usually
“thanks for telling me! I am not going to buy it”

Although some of the comments here have taken me back to toddler niece on the bus: why does that lady have SUCH BIG BOOBIES?

Understandable from a 3 year old. Not cute from a 9 year old.

No one who says horrible things to you is a friend?

My only worry OP is that ASD is a spectrum, so every poster’s experience with autism (including mine) can’t be used as a proxy for your DN’s ASD.

I would personally trust her parents on what their DD can and cannot comprehend and can and cannot learn yet. She is only 9 and the range of capabilities in DC with ASD widely varies in terms of learning basic social interaction and conversational skills.

Please know that she isn’t intentionally being hurtful and likely has no clue how or why what she said is hurtful. It is a minefield for these children as the “rules” never make sense and are conflicting. Her parents may be working on telling the truth and lies being wrong with her- which directly conflicts with saying someone looks nice when you honestly think they look a bit shit that day.

I think you may be confused, here is what I said
”No one who hits you is a friend, so no loss there.”

Hits is the key word

You’re talking about a child with a profound disability that means at a minimum, they take years longer than the NT child to learn how to manage social situations, and in some cases, they never manage to “mask” fully and it affects their entire life.

It's so important to explain about others feelings about comments like this with autistic children. They're at a disadvantage for learning social skills as it's much harder for them to pick up on the social cues and facial expressions which show someone is upset or angry at a comment.

Whilst a neurotypical 4 year old may make this comment they're likely to notice the facial expression shows someone's upset and learn not to do it again, with someone who is autistic theyre going to find it much easier if its ingrained from a young age which sort of comments may upset others rather than having to struggle working out why someone doesn't like them.
Imagine if she says that to another child because it hasn't been highlighted as an upsetting thing.

If she said what she said to you to her Head teacher would she be given a free pass or told it was rude?

YANBU!
You do NOT have to pretend that the world actually is as your DN sees it 👍

ASD is the reason but it’s not the excuse.
You absolutely should pull her up and explain why she shouldn’t say those things to people.
She needs to learn this before she starts alienating school friends.

@SpiritAdder What do you think about her parents trying to teach her not to be so direct? Do you think that they should or not?

Genuinely asking, I’d assumed that it would help her build and maintain friendships, but perhaps that’s not the best approach.

This, would she be upset if someone said something personally horrible about her?

Do many autistic people need coaching on not lying? I've always seen that as a neurotypical trait.

She is sweet and lovely how? What she is saying is cruel and unkind!

She might have ASD but it is her parents' job to teach her that she cannot go around spouting her 'honest' feelings around. It may take more work and different tactics than teaching a regular child but they have to do it. Otherwise what happens when she starts her first job and calls her boss a 'fat wanker' (even if it's true). She can't say it.

Tbh I would have been tempted to say 'I may be fat but at least I can lose weight if I want to - I don't have a permanently ugly soul like you'. (and for the record I bet you aren't fat)

Otherwise what happens when she starts her first job and calls her boss a 'fat wanker' (even if it's true). She can't say it.

Exactly @Thedoorisalwaysopen, that’s my concern! If she continues being so direct and saying whatever pops into her head, she’ll have such a difficult life.

@BruFord
Yes, I think her parents should teach her social skills BUT no one here can dictate how fast she can learn these skills as in what she can understand and do at age 9. Age 9 is meaningless when it comes to autism because we aren’t affected to the same severity on the same traits.

The teaching also needs to be done with compassion, as it has been shown that telling children with ASD that they are being mean or horrible and will have no friends or punishing them when they are unintentionally too direct is what develops rejection sensitivity and anxiety in relationships later in life.

It is also common for a child with autism to be on edge due to an environment less familiar than home and any break in routine which means they can’t focus on the myriad rules of what to say and do quite as well as they might at home,

So in my opinion, I trust the parents to know their child better than the OP and she handled it well and should not take anything her DN says personally and not interfere in trying to correct her without prior discussion with her DN’s parents on what skills they are working on and what she can do that supports it. OP going off piste based on MN posters can undo what the parents are working on and confuse her DN, making it even harder for DN to learn how navigate social situations.

This. My DS is AuDHD. Your DSis and DB are doing her zero favours by not teaching her how to exist in society. Yes autistic people can struggle to learn social communication “skills” that are instinctive to NTs. No she shouldn’t he berated for getting these things “wrong” but we should absolutely be helping autistic children gain these skills by explaining such things to them. You may want the world to completely change to accommodate you exactly as you are but unfortunately the world does not and will not ever work like this, especially with things like this. She will struggle to make and keep friends, and god knows what could happen if she says something like this to the wrong person. She could actually be in danger. I don’t know what parent would want a life like that for their child.

Also you are quite within your rights to say to someone insulting you that you don’t like it, and you would like them to stop. She isn’t the only person in the room that needs consideration and understanding.

I feel quite angry about how your DSis and DB are failing this child by not providing support and guidance with something so important to their success of life and wellbeing.

No, we often need coaching on when it is (apparently) ok to lie.
The concept of white lies makes no sense.

I have two autistic DDs and I think you did nothing wrong. You explained in an appropriate way. Yes, autistic children find it harder to understand social cues but that means they may need things explaining to them more explicitly. You haven't told her off or punished her.

She isn’t going to start her first job for probably a decade, plenty of time to learn. She doesn’t need to be ready at age 9!

I work with autistic people, I'm autistic and I have autistic family members. With the exception of one making a comment about me looking pregnant when she was about 7, which was handled the same way you handled your situation, there have been no personal comments about looks or weight. There can be comments that come across as harsh/blunt but the majority of parents instil in their children from a young age that there are certain thoughts that shouldn't be spoken as they are likely to hurt someone's feelings. Your DN is being failed by her parents.

You may want the world to completely change to accommodate you exactly as you are but unfortunately the world does not and will not ever work like this, especially with things like this. She will struggle to make and keep friends, and god knows what could happen if she says something like this to the wrong person. She could actually be in danger.

Great way to set a person up for a lifetime of anxiety. Have a peek at the thread about the autistic DS so terrified of going to University, he has had suicidal ideation.

My ds from a young age would randomly tell elderly ladies that they had "old skin" and, whilst I wanted the ground to consume me, they always agreed and said "why yes I do".

This was before I understood he was autistic and just thought he was being an annoying little shit. Many years later he's found it's best to not point out the bleedin obvious. And now I too have 'old skin'.

Maybe you are actually fat OP and your DN is only pointing out the 'bleedin obvious' but she's only 9, so give it 10 years or so and she won't be mentioning it. Meanwhile, just agree, it won't do either of you any harm.

I think you are right to explain this is not okay.

My son has autism. I would say - we do not comment on others bodies or appearance. And then explain why. I'd also talk about body differences but this would be something I'd work on the longer term.

I think with kids with autism they do say what they see without emotion. They aren't being unkind but it can come across that way. Labelling them unkind I think is unhelpful. Telling them it is not acceptable to behave this way is more helpful.