To choose “poor” state primary over amazing prep?

[Bedsleet]

My children are registered at a well-regarded local prep school. My husband was privately educated and signed them up at birth, because it’s apparently the done thing. I have always presumed we would send them to state school, and sort of viewed this as a back up plan.

Our closest primaries are all a bit of a mixed bag. Two are Ofsted “good” and the closest (which would probably have been our top choice) has just gone from a very old “outstanding” to a mix of “inadequate” and “requires improvement”. We would, especially now, likely be allocated this school.

Prep is expensive. State is free. But will it be a disaster at a “failed” school? Don’t know how much attention to pay to the Ofsted as parents seem to think it’s OK. We can afford prep but it would impact on savings and holidays. I don’t know whether I’m being naive in hoping my children would be fine in the state option, or whether I ought to buy into the private option given that it’s there.

WWYD? Especially keen to hear from parents of primary age kids, or who have made a similar call. Appreciate am fortunate to have these options.

YANBU - state
YABU - prep

@SpanThatWorld Ofsted don’t give RI on “paperwork drifting”. It’s rubbish. If you cared to quote what they really said, it would be something they meant dc didn’t do as well as they should hsve done. This means some have not acquired the skills needed for secondary school and accessing that curriculum. There is no Ofsted assessment of paperwork.

Generally around 70%. I can’t quite figure out why the averages are quite good (I think?) but almost nobody exceeds expectations? This is all new to me.

The prep has very good outcomes and destinations. Very good extra curricular.

I presume that now the local school has done so badly, it will be under great pressure to turn things around, so it might even be a good time to join? Perhaps I’m deluding myself though.

@Bedsleet I have been a chair of governors in a school that had persistent issues and RI. It’s a while ago now but I can remember what the issues were and the massive effort needed to improve.

So, in no particular order: the new head was amazing. She knew exactly how to improve a school. However some teachers will kick and scream about changing. To move forward, they have to buy into the new vision and some won’t. It’s then a significant issue as staff turbulence causes problems and you might get ones on long term duck costing the school a fortune. The money isn’t being spent on dc.

Staff can find a new head is a threat to their cosy teaching career and they feel the caring side of the school disappears. The best schools of course teach well and care at the same time.

Often the teachers are not good enough at certain elements of the curriculum. This could be teaching reading, maths etc etc. They need help to improve. They will but it’s not flicking a switch.

The school might have behaviour issues. SLT will have to work really hard on how poor behaviour is dealt with and strategies devised. Again it’s not an overnight fix.

The school must draw up a plan to improve and continually provide evidence as to progress. The governors must be adept at interpreting data and holding the school to account. In cruising schools they often don’t do this and have poor governance systems. The plan must address the shortcomings but making sure it’s effective is really really hard work and if the school is beset by staffing issues, it’s 2 years worth of work. If anyone says it’s paperwork or a quick fix they are deluded.

Your issue is not enough exceeding dc. Whet you need to know is why? Deprived area or poor teaching? You must look at other schools regarding 70% meeting expectations. It’s not great!

My LA average is 10% at exceeding. However some schools are double this of course. It’s very leafy lane with deprived areas or areas where few get 11 plus. We are a grammar school county,

I’d definitely go state primary school, my two go to a really rough school and it’s made them in to better more tolerant people. They know how to mix with different folk and it’s made them learn to stand up for themselves. They are both bright kids so have got on really well compared to the school average and don’t have to worry about having the latest things as nobody can really afford them. My eldest was head boy and I’d choose a state school again. It’s not for every child but it made my two into lovely accepting humans.

You would need to look at why it's rated that way and how much store you set by it. I always keep an eye on my daughter's old nursery as she still goes there for wraparound care and I've seen the inspection reports being graded lower and lower every time - however as far as I'm concerned it's still a great place with good, stable staffing and a sound ethos. Many of the issues are related to resourcing and time pressures on staff, which is a sector-wide issue and a lot of other nurseries are in the same boat, so I wouldn't judge on that alone.

Thanks. That sounds like it could be a similar trajectory. There’s an interim head in place now. I don’t think there were massive behavioural issues. Curriculum apparently being taught inconsistently.

The area is urban but a pretty affluent pocket with lots of professional parents, lots of tutoring, so I’m surprised more kids aren’t doing extremely well. The nearby “good” schools have similar/slightly fewer children meeting expectations but more exceeding.

Re. Your previous comment about privilege- you make good points. My husband had a more privileged background than me but I obviously think he’s excellent 😂. I am in an industry where privately educated people are over represented and I’ve found this quite jarring at times, especially when I went to university and seemed to have come from a different planet to many peers. I think this is what makes me wary of private all the way through.

I'm not going into detail. Lots of the concerns were around leadership, curriculum planning and consistent use of assessment data. However, personal development and Safeguarding were good. It was noted to be a kind and safe school.
I don't teach there as that's not my role any longer. But what is see is a school that has happy children making progress.

The Outstanding school i worked at was absolutely horrible to its staff and to its children. Maybe they made more progress overall. But their day to day life at school was miserable.

You really need to visit all the potential schools and see how they feel in person. There's so much variation even between neighbouring prep schools or primaries. The private school in our village (unsurprisingly) gets better 11+ results than the state primary, but when I went to visit them with my work hat on to talk about mental health, not one child was confident to put their hand up to say what mental health is and how we can look after our wellbeing. It was the complete opposite in the state primary, where the children didn't sit quite as still, had fewer trophies presented in their weekly assembly, but were very eloquent about their wellbeing and why it matters.

@SpanThatWorld I imagine the point is dc aren’t making as much progress as they could or should. If assessment data isn’t used (or assessed) correctly and the curriculum isn’t as good as it should be, dc don’t get the education they deserve.

Virtually no school fails safeguarding and most are ok at personal development. The problem areas are what you have identified but they absolutely matter. It’s difficult for a RI SLT to put it right. They need to improve too and often that’s hard.

I have never seen a miserable school. I’ve seen many wonderful schools with first class teaching and an exciting curriculum. The most challenging schools are the ones where dc are bored, not listened to and are bullied. These have parents leaving.

I don't disagree with any of the substantive points about assessment or whatever. But the school I am thinking of is a happy place. It is over-subscribed.

You may not have ever seen a miserable school. I worked in one where children's natural joy was squashed by an SLT determined to impose behavioural expectations that were inappropriate for those children and a curriculum that was overly focused on the able students at the expense of the less able. The less able are my focus.
Planning took hours with ridiculously prescriptive templates but lessons were dull. Small children on the carpet for far too long and their independent learning tasks pointless. Ofsted said Outstanding. I would not have sent my children there. I would quite happily have sent my children to the RI school.

private every time if you can afford to go the whole way through

@SpanThatWorldMany schools fail to assess their bright children accurately and largely fail them, plus Sen dc of course. The middle are often the best catered for. However schools that don’t know their dc get it wrong. Obviously in an over subscribed school, parents have no idea that all dc are miserable. So word of mouth didn’t match experience which is odd. Clearly open days told parents nothing either. Strange the parents did not run a mile though. Suggests to me most liked it.

Largely first generation immigrant population. They tend not to shop around for schools and most schools in that area were oversubscribed.

No it’s not. It’s going to be spent on housing.

Op You do seem desperate to convince yourself that this is all good and state is the right outcome despite the red flags.

RI/inadequate can lead to turning the tide and in some respects better to rip the plaster than being in a school bumping along with a historic good rating that will go down but head is in denial over. Having watched this happen at local schools that friends kids attended I recognise some of the things that another poster mentions about the turbulence, staff resistance, staff turnover etc and it being 2+ years before that resolves. If your child would be starting in 2026, you would likely be half way through that period and are generally more sheltered in reception anyway provided the reception teachers are decent.

however I have also watched schools go through 2 years of turbulence and still badly underperforming for a variety of reasons. Key factor are often whether head is strong enough and how much teacher resistance there is. It isn’t a given that the only way is up and that is really important to remember.

I would also caution about putting too much weight on the “it is the home that matter” argument. I hear this frequently from my more left learning friends, often (bluntly) when they are having to convince themselves the not great schools they have to accept will be fine. And yes it is true up to a point sure. But here is the thing - it isnt a choice for your children between a good school OR committed/educated parents who have books at home. I’m assuming they have the latter - it is therefore committed/educated parents and either an underperforming school or a well performing school. FWIW a couple of friends who went down that path have regretted although other haven’t.

The lack of top performance would be a concern if you have a well educated parent base. That would suggest to me they are teaching to the middle and not bothering to help the kids who can achieve more to do so. That is a boring and demotivating place for a child who is very bright - something I’ve learnt the hard way with primary state education.

Yeah I know.. I was just parroting fake announcements, like the Labour Party does.

it won’t be spent on housing either.

State.
Use monies for excurricular activies music sports art etc.
Tutors.

I'm a bit surprised at your evident assumption that your daughters can only be friends with girls?

My boys are 7 and 9 and have always had friends of both sex

We had a similar decision to make. We went for the state primary but the two things I would say are -

1. We went into it with the mindset of - we would re-evaluate after a year and consider prep from 7 which is a very common entry point. It's not an all or nothing forever choice

2. We felt based on the open day that this was a school which was on the up, would improve and had a plan. For example - they have prioritised in their budget, a separate space for the children with very high needs. So the classes are not disrupted by those children and those children get different resources and more focus. Similarly they have prioritised TAs - every class has a teacher and a TA which also really helps with disruption

The academic results across the board are fairly average but my kids - including my summer born - have had greater depth in all core subjects so far. Both are bright and feel stretched

All of this TBH was really clear at the open day and the way the head talked openly and frankly about the school and it's challenges

Yes, all good points!

It seems I’ve probably been thinking too optimistically. Given that MN often seems very anti private education, I was expecting people to tell me that Ofsted doesn’t matter, or that it will lead to massive improvements. That’s what other local parents have been saying. But perhaps you’re right and we are all just trying to convince ourselves.

I’ll continue to do my research but will keep prep as an option if we can’t get into one of the other schools.

Thanks. I’m glad it has worked out well - that’s reassuring! Currently this school has an interim head in place so it’s not clear who will be leading longer term. One of the major issues raised was SEN provision and management of disruptive children, so I expect that these areas will be worked on but it seems that it’s too early for any plan to have been made yet. Lots of things are a bit up in the air for now, but might become clearer before we apply.

@BedsleetThe head should be working on the plan already! In fact the school should have known about disruption way before Ofsted turned up. When did the interim head start? Plus it’s poor they haven’t recruited to the post. When did the substantive head leave?

Interim heads can be amazing. They can really get things moving in the right direction if the staff buy into the plan. The problem with some interim heads is that they merely do a holding job. They aren’t committed and really would prefer to be at their own school so improvement drags on slowly. Therefore I think it’s vital this school appoints a head and you keep checking the newsletters on its web site. The school will inevitably need a better trained SENDCO too. The plan is the “easy” bit. Carrying it out is the difficult bit because staff training is usually involved and budgets take a hammering.

Plus the very good Sen suggestion above very much depends on funds. Many schools do not have space for a separate area or money for an enhanced ratio of staffing. Therefore lots of schools don’t have this luxury and TAs in classes have to suffice. However it might be that better direction of TAs in class and use of sets with a smaller lower set can help. Some new heads will come in and take a good hard look at how dc are managed but some parents will be upset.

@TizerorFizz yes agree on the funding

Our school has a shit hot finance person (I am a governor and talk to her about the budget a lot) and also very high pupil premium - both of which really have a huge impact.