To choose “poor” state primary over amazing prep?

[Bedsleet]

My children are registered at a well-regarded local prep school. My husband was privately educated and signed them up at birth, because it’s apparently the done thing. I have always presumed we would send them to state school, and sort of viewed this as a back up plan.

Our closest primaries are all a bit of a mixed bag. Two are Ofsted “good” and the closest (which would probably have been our top choice) has just gone from a very old “outstanding” to a mix of “inadequate” and “requires improvement”. We would, especially now, likely be allocated this school.

Prep is expensive. State is free. But will it be a disaster at a “failed” school? Don’t know how much attention to pay to the Ofsted as parents seem to think it’s OK. We can afford prep but it would impact on savings and holidays. I don’t know whether I’m being naive in hoping my children would be fine in the state option, or whether I ought to buy into the private option given that it’s there.

WWYD? Especially keen to hear from parents of primary age kids, or who have made a similar call. Appreciate am fortunate to have these options.

YANBU - state
YABU - prep

I can understand why a poor report for a single reason wouldn’t be too offa-putting. But this one has done badly across the board.

what are the sat scores?

Average scaled scores 107-109 in last few years. Most meet expected. Very few <10% greater depth. I don’t really know what any of that means though!

Ofsted reports can be fairly meaningless my son goes to the same primary I went to when I was there it was always "requires improvement" and one time it was "inadequate". Since my son joined it's always been "good".

But honestly it hasn't changed much and has always been a lovely school.

Save your money for secondary school

Tricky one.

fwiw we were in a similar position.

bought our house as it was in catchment for the primary school which then went from outstanding to in special measures.

the primary school had a cramped 1960s campus, with a leaking roof. The prep school had a huge field and amazing facilities.

we chose the prep. The kids are now at uni and have thrived- there were some grade 8 scholarship type kids but as someone else said that was the parents driving them. Not sure mine ever felt second best.

i do agree with the idea of primary school. Both dh and I were state educated. But having looked around the school and met the headteacher I just couldn’t do it.

of course it eventually went back up the ladder and is now good. Maybe my decision would be different now

I would not touch an Inadequate/RI Improvement school with a 10 foot pole and I doubt many on here would either if it came down to it.

I went to an average state school myself and coasted at a low/average level. I was perfectly happy and well adjusted at school, not unhappy in any way. I was never made to feel that I should be working harder or differently. But after I scored v highly on standardised tests (based on reasoning, not based on curriculum) I was given a place at a private school, and went from C's to A*'s.

DCs go to an outstanding primary school - I appealed to get a place.

The Requires Improvement school might (might) get your child through fine with the basics, but is that all you want? If it's RI it definitely won't help your child fulfil their true potential.

Most meet expected

What is most? 60%? Is it line with national averages, I would want that as a minimum.

As a comparison our primary always gets 86% plus at expected and at least 35% will be getting exceeding. But I like a school that pushes.

How well does the prep perform? How good are the extracurriculars? Not every prep is worth the money. At 20k a year I want exceptional! 😆

Thank you. We are the same. Schools were a big consideration when we moved, and I suppose it goes to show that you can’t plan everything!

Husband has completely lost confidence in the state and is very against it. I feel more conflicted. I did well in the state system and I worry about the privilege of prep. But also don’t want to deprive my kids because of some (as PP said) leftie aspirations and my own unease about private.

We sent ours to a school that went from “good” to “inadequate”’during the time after our application and before my daughter went. Honestly it’s been just fine, the ofsted said reception was rated good, they sorted out issues and have a new head, now rated good. It was in a nice area and we got a good vibe when we visited so although I worried about it, it’s been the right choice.
Also If you can afford to send to private you can afford to get a tutor in a worse case scenario to help them along. However both my kids are doing well and have passed their relevant tests etc and I don’t do that much with them at home.

I personally would apply for the ‘good’ state schools, but both of mine were naturally academically able so it depends on how your children are I suppose. My DD’s primary was satisfactory when she started, she passed her 11+ and is now at Med school so it didn’t negatively impact her.

This is probably not a common opinion, but I really wouldn’t want my children in a school where behaviour is perfect, with everyone complying with the school rules and not questioning anything. It isn’t real life.

I didn’t have any problems with DD’s behaviour but I know she will be a better doctor for the experience she has had at state schools

From the side of having a ‘naughty’ child, DS was probably a bit disruptive in class at primary. He is now at state secondary and is currently leading a campaign within school to allow girls to train with, and compete in if selected, the boys sports teams if they choose to. It’s caused him to receive a few detentions, but I’m proud that he’s spoken up and pushing for change.

Easier to start state and switch to private than vice versa.

The school will have an action plan to improve and so likely will offer more than it currently does.

id start state. Switch if needed. Maybe plan secondary private as a definite in the meantime?

You can start at state and move to the prep later on if you are unhappy with it. Presumably the prep won’t be oversubscribed and likely has additional extra entry points for year 3?

@Bedsleet Why did you marry someone who had “privilege” then? Is he a decent human being who has a good job? Or is he a trust fund waste of space? You didn’t seem to worry about his privilege so why on earth worry about giving dc the best of starts? I find that position bizarre snd very much cherry picking to suit modern views. I guess your friends won’t approve?

If less than 10% are getting exceeding it tells you less than 3 dc in 30 are getting this result. It is telling you the school is not attracting the brightest dc. Maybe they are in the private school or have jumped ship already? If you think your dc is bright, and this level of results continues, who would they work with? Where’s the challenge? Have you looked at all the comparison data available? I suspect this school is under performing when compared to similar schools. Look for the data on the government compare schools website. Fsm, attainment, Sen data etc is there.

Yes, a school can turn round in 2 years but parents often turn off a school for much longer.

The best preps do attract great teachers. It’s the so-so ones who scrape the bottom of the barrel of teachers who cannot teach 30 dc but can just about teach 12. The best (and expensive) preps get great teachers and offer generous staff discounts.

No prep has vast numbers going for scholarships snd getting them. Well maybe a handful. Even the top sets won’t get much as they are competitive. A prep will list their scholarships on their web site and destination schools. If they don’t, they don’t get scholarships in any quantity. However that might just be down to which senior schools are applied to. In general academic scholarships are not the norm at all.

I would say:

• has the Head changed? Often if a school is inadequate/RI, there are leadership changes.

Look at the cohort. If its consistently challenging, don't go there.

The advantage of a school that comes up short with ofsted is it forces changes and a drive for improvement, but that might not be in the areas you want. Eg it might mean a big push on dragging up lower attainers, or a very strict behaviour policy. It depends what suits you.

Also, I would take ofsted with a pinch of salt. The absolute worst place my husband has ever worked, where we absolutely would never send our kids git a good grading while he was there. Even thr head was stunned.

What I would recommend is visiting the school for a tour on a normal working day, rather than an open eve if you have concerns. This will give you a feel for the atmosphere and culture of the place.

If it were me I would not pay for private for primary. Secondary, if you have it, yes, but for primary it’s so easy to supplement what might be perceived as ‘missing’ with things outside school such as clubs etc as well as things during the holidays. If there parents are involved set at the state school then it’s highly likely that your children will
do well. I would go to the school you are thinking about at the end of a normal school day and see what you think and speak with parents who currently have their children there as they will let you know of any issues. I hope you are able to choose what works well for you as a family.

I agree Ofsted is to be taken with a pinch of salt. The absolute worst school in my town has an outstanding Ofsted, the reason it sucks is the type of people who send their kids there and the kids sadly behave just like their parents. The school has a nursery and someone I know took their kid out because aged two they were coming come cussing and saying words like cunt. That's the biggest issue when it comes to picking a school and obviously a school can't help who sends their kids there so Ofsted aren't going to downgrade them over that.

The primary school I went to was always requires improvement and once it was inadequate but it was actually a nice school.

So here’s the problem. If your children are in any way bright they will be left to coast at a state school. In private education, they’ll be encouraged to stretch themselves. Go private if you can.

We’ve done both private and state. If your child is NT or non-disruptive/only disruptive if in loud and busy environments ND I would pick prep.

If your child is likely to be too disruptive I would pick state, as you’ll be managed out anyway.

@FortheloveofCheesus 9/10 it’s teaching that’s the big issue. Not assessing properly, not setting appropriate work, not sequencing the curriculum effectively , not taking action when dc not doing so well because the barriers to learning aren’t addressed and schools having to put up with mediocre teaching due to recruitment issues.

Where a school was outstanding, they have possibly coasted and had an inaccurate view of themselves. They then don’t improve because they don’t think they need to. They could have had turbulent staffing or just not been good enough so parents go elsewhere because they can. Gov stats show the situation over several years.

I worked in an Outstanding school. I would not have sent my children there had it been the last primary school in the universe.

A school i work with now has just got RI equivalent. It is lovely. The children do well. Their paperwork, planning etc had drifted over the years since their previous grading.

My two are at prep and I'd rather get a second job than put them into the local State school.
They are thriving.
Prep sets the foundations and habits for later learning. Send them if you can.

Entirely depends on your child.

I have very strong political views and am an absolutely commited (and dedicated and passionate) state school teacher. Yet my daughter goes to private school, a decision we made because it was right for her.

I can't defend it on ethical grounds and I don't care. She's my child and I'd see the world go up in smoke to make sure she was ok and thriving.

Currently state schools are under funded. In a perfect world it's a decision nobody would need to make, because every child would access to an excellent free education.

But we don't live in a perfect world, and you choose your poison.

That's not to say private is necessarily right for your child. My daughter has a specific SEND but is also extremely academically able (I am not being an arrogant dick here, only saying this because it's relevant to the discussion). The small selective private through school she has gone to is actually quite capable of catering to her needs, and providing her with the challenge she needs. I strongly believe that, with the best will in the world, even an outstanding state school teacher, with 30 or so kids in the class, could not have met her needs so well - it's not humanly possible.

Having said that, she has had numerous class mates over the years with different talents and needs, that her school has woefully failed to meet, and they have gone on to thrive, both personally and academically, in the excellent local state school.

It's difficult - how can you know what will suit your kids until you try it out? So I would say keep an open mind with both options - start with the one that seems to suit them best, but keep an open mind to changing if your kids start struggling, whether that's socially or academically.

Also remember (and I wish somebody had told me this when I had to make this decision). We crucify ourselves trying to do the right thing for our kids - but we don't have a crystal ball. No "mistake" you make will be irreversible.

So do what seems best now but stay involved, stay thoughtful, stay flexible. You won't know your children's capabilities and needs fully until they are a good bit older.

And the nerdy best of luck whatever you decide!

Very. Not nerdy.

Every single state school?