To think rich people steal money all the time and that’s often why they’re rich?

[MyAmusedOpalCrab]

We hear so much about “hard work” and “smart investments” but let’s be honest, so many rich people didn’t get wealthy by being ethical. From dodgy business practices to exploiting workers, tax dodging, insider deals and straight-up corruption, wealth often comes at someone else’s expense.

Governments bail out billionaires while ordinary people struggle to afford rent. CEOs cut wages and benefits while pocketing massive bonuses. Huge corporations find loopholes to avoid taxes while the rest of us get squeezed.

Obviously not every rich person is a thief but AIBU to think that a lot of them are? That the system is rigged in their favour and they keep getting richer by bending or outright breaking the rules?

it could be debated that no billionaire truly became a billionaire by being ethical or just luck

Well you’ve really drunk the kool aid.

i work in tax and there are some real misconceptions on this thread:

• no-one needs to to pay “more” tax than they are legally required to. Ie people must pay what they are required to it but no more - tax is not charitable giving and people don’t need all income and activities to be taxed at 100%. This is a basic principle of tax law as enshrined in hundreds of years of case law.
• so there are very legitimate rules that determine what tax someone is required to pay. Using those rules to pay only what you are required to but no more is a form of avoiding a higher tax liability than would otherwise be due ie tax avoidance.
• and we have all benefitted from these legitimate rules which allow us to avoid paying the highest tax liability ie we all benefit from these tax avoidance rules - you don’t pay 100% tax on your income due to the bands and a personal allowance, you may have benefitted from duty free, you don’t pay any vat on essential items, sdlt first time relief, using ISAs, benefitting from a nil rate band for inheritance tax. We have literally all benefitted from these legitimate rules to avoid and mitigate tax. Because we don’t need to tax all of our income and activities.
• why shouldn’t companies (who pay salaries/keep the economy afloat, need to attract good talent/bright minds) save tax using legitimate means such as low tax jurisctions which they disclose to hmrc
• why shouldn’t pension schemes or insurance companies also mitigate their tax bills on investment - this benefits the whole of society

so tax avoidance isn’t the demon people think it is - especially as so many loopholes have been closed down over the past decade. Transactions and structures literally need to have a commercial purpose and can’t just exist to avoid tax.

Tax evasion/fraud is totally illegal and unethical - it is not paying the tax due or not following the rules.

and there was a thread up top that said that lower sdlt rates were payable upon acquiring 6 houses and that this is a shocker. Well actually “houses” for this can include eg student accommodation and other huge multi- let buildings so is a way for home builders to increase accommodation/house numbers for all. So again not the demon that the poster thinks it is.

Why are you pretending anyone said super rich? Here's what the OP said and I responded to:

"Obviously not every rich person is a thief but AIBU to think that a lot of them are?"

My comment stands.

How do you define rich?
Is it having properties worth millions, but no regular income?
Is it having a huge income, but not being able to afford to buy anywhere?
It is all relative, is it not?
Rich could also be having a supportive group of family and friends.

The unsubstantiated image?

Unless you have vast amounts of tax and economic knowledge it’s hard to tell which taxes / loopholes are good for our economy and which aren’t.

I work in an area of tax where extensive exemptions are available. Certain areas of government are agitating for these loopholes to be closed ‘as it will raise loads of money’. This is absolute screaming nonsense. The trade in this sort of financial instruments will immediately jump overseas as a result of any closure of the tax exemptions, the economy will lose all of the huge wider economic benefits of this trade and all because some ignoramus stated that theres an exemption, tax it. The industry response to those calling for taxes it to tell them to go talk to the government’s economists and they’ll tell you to piss off, but it’s very tiresome.

I’d like the level of tax to be raised in this country but we’ve got to be smart about it. The top rate of income tax is already extremely high in this country compared to others, and the bottom rate of tax very low. You aren’t going to get more money off the wealthy to fund better public services. There aren’t enough people and they already pay enough. I find it tiresome when the government distracts the public with the eye catching idea of a wealth tax (which most economists say will raise nothing and will scare off many wealthy people, dropping the overall tax take as a result) when they could be talking about reversing Jeremy Hunts ridiculous vote-grabbing NICs reductions, or scrapping any high marginal tax rates which force people to restrict their income. Or many, many other basic ideas that talented tax advisors and economists agree would boost the tax take and growth in an efficient and fair manner.

Not true. Given my income i get zero personal allowance so most of my income is taxed at 50%. Add in the impact of VAT and council tax and I pay easily 50% in tax. Very high earners are mobile and simply move if you tax too highly. It is upper middle earners who finish up paying for an increasing benefits bill.

Eat the rich.

Most tax evasion is by small businesses. It costs the government a huge amount in lost revenue that could otherwise have been spent on essential benefits & services. The amount of tax lost by evasion from criminal activities (ie drug trade, prostitution, selling stolen goods) is higher than evasion by wealthy individuals (defined by HMRC as those on 200K per year or more).

It's easy to complain about multinational companies reducing their tax liabilities but firstly that will take international government action to resolve, secondly there is no guarantee that would increase UK tax take, and thirdly higher tax would likely mean higher prices.

People buy off Amazon because it's cheaper than other options. There will be a lot of complaints on Mumsnet if prices rise due to tax rises - there's a whole thread of people whining about eating out not being 'value for money' anymore, and ignoring everyone pointing out that Nat Insurance & minimum wage rises are part of the issue.

You are correct about the 1%, I just Googled it, you now need just over 200K. I would still argue though that these people are not the problem, good for them if they've been successful. It's the people on £200 million a year that are the problem or £2 billion a year.
I think we need a global strategy and cooperation to tax these people. It'll never happen though.

Personally I think people sitting in property worth millions but living in poverty because they don't have an income are choosing to be poor. A choice the vast majority of poor people don't have.

Tax avoidance is legal. There is no virtue in paying more tax than you have to.

A lot of people missing the fairly obvious point that if you are rich you have the influence to make the immoral shit you want to get up to legal.

You still aren’t rich in the context of the thread though, so that point is moot.

I agree and I think this happens because we unthinkingly conflate wealth and success with merit.
Once those particular scales fall from one's eyes it all looks very different 😯🤬

True, but the tax code/tax laws are in the control of the powerful and therefore they are made such that they favor the powerful.

This is so true. It’s kind of like the people who go on about how they’re working hard to make a better life for their kids, so they can benefit, for example by helping them buy a house. But at the same time slag anyone off who is benefitting from THEIR parents’ help. It’s literally what they’re trying to achieve for their own children, just one generation ahead.

Will they be ok with people slagging off their children when they are benefitting from their parents’ hard work, or is that different? At what point does achieving generational
wealth stop being acceptable?

It’s just catty jealousy, clear as day, but it does make me eye roll!

What I find abhorrent is that taxpayers prop up the payroll of places like supermarkets as they don't pay their staff enough. (Through working tax credits). It blows my mind that taxpayers have no choice but to do this but get nothing back whilst the businesses make billions in profits and this goes to the shareholders!

Exactly.

We're told that it's because of hard work and sacrifices that people achieve success, and conveniently ignore that it's not just their own hard work and sacrifices that lead to that, because no one exists in a bubble, the hard work and sacrifices of others have contributed towards that success.

Has always been that way, but more and more people are realising they're just a tool in someone else's plan to be rich and successful and they're kicking back. And of course that needs to be squashed because those doing it recognise that they need others in order to do what they do and achieve that success, but admitting that means they have to admit they haven't made it all by themselves.

Has always been that way, but more and more people are realising they're just a tool in someone else's plan to be rich and successful and they're kicking back.
@Audiwannabe

What do you think the consequences will be now more and more people are ‘kicking back’?

@MyAmusedOpalCrab

"To think rich people steal money all the time and that’s often why they’re rich?"

Without even RTFT - AIBU "to think that poor people are stupid, lazy, luck drive, ambition and charisma and that's often why they stay poor?"

Is this the same way of thinking?

Those kicking back are voting Trump and Reform? who are going to make them much poorer?

We're not talking about you, poppet. Well, unless you're using your salary to fund think tanks and lobby politicians in the hope of getting those pesky tax bands changed. Are you?

Fuck me, neoliberalism is a disease, innit?

Err no its not. I am paying probably more than 50% and I do not want to pay any more thanks.