To think that surgeons, while obviously skilled, often have a certain arrogance that makes them difficult to work with?

[WildHazelCritic]

I completely respect the level of skill, training, and responsibility that comes with being a surgeon but I’ve noticed that many seem to have a certain… arrogance? Of course, confidence is necessary in that field but at what point does it tip over into being dismissive or difficult to work with?

I’ve heard stories (and witnessed myself) of surgeons being rude to colleagues, unwilling to take input, or acting like they’re above everyone else. Is this just part of the culture or do some surgeons lean into the “god complex” stereotype a little too much?

AIBU to think their attitude could sometimes use a reality check? Or is this just a misunderstanding of what the job requires?

It depends on the specialty. Orthopaedic surgeons often have a swagger, it's almost cultural, they have to acquire it.

Then there are those surgeons who are part of a multidisciplinary team in which everyone is equal, whose attitude often seems to be, 'when in doubt, cut it out', when other consultants in the team advise more conservative treatment.

However, whatever the specialty, where there are three doctors there will be four opinions.

Psychopaths and narcissists can make good surgeons. You have to be able to look at a living breathing human as just a machine to be mended, and also cope with the inevitability of sometimes getting it wrong and the patient dying at your hands. As such, it's going to attract a particular type of person who may not be big on empathy and people skills.

Well I'm not an anaesthetist I'm a midwife but going under an anaesthetic is essentially a medically induced coma. An anaesthetist explained it like this to a patient who was very anxious about her procedure.

You won't feel pain and you won't have any memory of what has happened whilst you were under the anaesthetic and you will be unable to move during the procedure. It is most definitely not the same as being asleep.

They are qualified doctors who have then gone on to specialise in anaesthetics. They are I would imagine the lynchpin in ITU where the majority of the patients are unconscious.

I feel that you need a degree of arrogance in order to be able to confidently cut people open every day, honestly! Nothing I could ever do and am in awe of those who can. I have been on the receiving end of an overly sure-of-himself surgeon however, he’d done a surgery relatively new to the UK and he was the only surgeon in the UK carrying out that procedure and recommended we try it.

Sadly, I experienced a lot of complications and he was extremely reluctant to remove the metalwork he’d put in, as he told me he had a 100% success rate with it! I was like cool, that’s really nice, but I can put weight on neither of my legs though and I’m sorry it ruins your certainty in this op as a solution!

He did eventually try another fix and reverse what was done, but not until I’d done several rounds of steroid injections into my ankle joints (shudder) to try and make it work. He did a fantastic job on the last procedure and the others he did for me, but his refusal to accept I was in agony for months and months really soured things.

Our neighbour was a highly renowned anaesthetist adored by patients and staff alike. His wife on the other hand 🙈

I've encountered an abrupt, clueless surgeon for one abdo surgery and several years later, a female surgeon who was an absolute legend. I reacted badly to morphine, he came to see me the following morning and told me to get up, there was nothing wrong with me, and showed me photos of my insides mid operation with no warning. I'm a fairly robust person thankfully, it was an ectopic pregnancy surgery. I'm not fazed by medical images unless they're brutal. I found him mildly hilarious in his social stupidity but I knew he was going to garner many complaints in his career. He was a prize bellend. The second came to see me after her shift was done to go through everything with me, clearly knackered after a day of operations, told me she tried really hard to get all the gas out to minimise gas pains, listened to me and was just right in tone and level of explanation. That was another ectopic.

Can we talk about anaesthetists tho? I've met some brilliant ones. In all different ways. Human, funny, warm, sweet. Why are they so good?

I’m an NHS manager for a surgical specialty so I’ve worked with a lot of surgeons. Most of them are absolutely lovely, a few of them are horrors as a colleague but still fantastic with patients and utterly dedicated to their care. The most difficult surgeon I’ve ever worked with professionally is the one with the best bedside manner with his patients, I was gobsmacked when I first saw him interacting with them when shadowing his list, he was like a different person

As a surgeon I’m biased but I would say you have to have a certain type of personality to do our job and to venture into unknown territory.

However. I like all the team I work with and I respect my colleagues I treat everyone I work with, with respect and will always speak up for my colleagues.

Having said that; I have shouted (once and only once) before. It was a really really tricky bit where I had to attach a bit of bowel to another piece after removing a section with a tumour in situ but the patient’s anatomy was very different and the tissue was extremely fragile for some reason, so I had to use lots of different types of sutures and it was really hairy for a short period where I really couldn’t stop the stitches from tearing through the tissue paper thin bowel. It was extremely stressful and I asked for the music to be turned off because I really needed to focus (I usually work with a nice playlist on Spotify). Music was turned off and I decided to give it one more go before giving the patient a stoma that would not have ever been reversible because of the anatomy, so this was life changing surgery.

I was very stressed and all I could hear was 2 people talking so loudly about how irritating and unfair it was the music was turned off. So yes, I did say very loudly ‘please can everyone be quiet I need to concentrate and because I never ever tell people to be quiet, it went instantly silent and afterwards I apologised for speaking loudly and turning the music off because if you’re not operating and can see the wound it really is quite boring without music.

some of my colleagues are genuinely awful to operate with because of the way they talk to the theatre staff, but they’re not liked and no one loves staying late for them, whereas I know I am respected and liked. All of the theatre staff are essential and I couldn’t do my job without them, so I treat them as I’d like to be treated and it probably doesn’t hurt that I chuck a couple hundred quid behind the bar at the Christmas do 😜.

Also I am female. I have no issue telling my colleagues to wind their neck in (surgeons) just because I’m a consultant gastro surgeon doesn’t mean for 2 seconds I can act like an overgrown toddler

Too funny - I posted then read comments. Anaesthetists have been discussed! Interesting. Muchly so. The anaesthetist who held my hand during my emergency c section was an absolute treasure.

Accurate.

I wonder if the prestige of their profession goes to their heads? They seem to have a disproportionate amount of arrogant dickheads in the profession.

Totally agree. And I don't think it's just surgeons,a lot of senior doctors are like this too. They have this god complex,and treat us like brainless idiots. And heaven help us if we have the audacity to question them on a decision regarding OUR health.

I've often thought I'd like to be around to observe people in hospital. I'd say fly on the wall but that feels unhygienic! I get all curious when I'm a patient and want to know all I can about the way it all works, the machinations. I've often thought that time is different in hospitals though, you can feel so isolated from the outside world. Is it the same for the people working there, or is this just a patient specific perspective?

Thanks for this little insight into your world. I hope your thin organed patient's outcome was good, not that you can say.

It’s absolutely this.

To be a surgeon at all requires a degree of self belief that most don’t possess.

I don’t think surgeons are arrogant. I don’t necessarily think the traits that make it possible for people to be surgeons align well with being a “people person” but they’re not arrogant. They have a huge amount of self belief, which after making a career out of cutting into people and fixing problems, is entirely warranted.

While that may be true of many surgeons, they aren't all like that. The orthopedic surgeon I had last year for my fractured arm was a lovely man. He was kind and caring to both patients and staff.

I can say as it’s vague. No stoma needed, more chemo as planned and still cancer free 😊

Iv had multiple surgeons some are amazing some are arrogant arseholes who if you dare to question them you know about it.

Whoop!!!

Also sounds like an accurate description of some of the GP's I've seen in the last few years.

its like the ep of person of interest In a flashback scene of "Person of Interest", when Sameen Shaw is first introduced, she is working as a doctor, her character is established through her actions and dialogue which highlight her pragmatic and somewhat detached nature.

She is shown performing a complex surgery with a calm demeanor, even when faced with a tense situation involving a patient's family.

Her focus is solely on the medical procedure, demonstrating her dedication to her work and her ability to remain objective under pressure.

but the head manager doctor tells shaw that because she didnt have empathy she should not be a surgeon. but as she said which is better haveing self doubt or lacking empathy ?

You sound very similar to the gastro surgeon my son had. He had lymphoma in his bowel and needed several complicated surgeries and did have a stoma but it was able to be reversed after he finished cancer treatment.

She was amazing. Very knowledgeable, always kept me informed and gave me and my son the biggest hugs when she told us she was happy for him to be discharged after a very long 10 months. I'll never, ever forget her.

They are known to have this reputation, as are pilots.

Justifiable rage.

You have to have the ability to think " no one would have got a better outcome", if something goes wrong. For that to be real/valid you need knowledge and experience. If it comes with arrogance and not.humility then the surgeon wont learn and improve and be more able to anticipate possible outcomes next time.

Surgery is like carpentry but you don't get to walk away when it doesnt go to plan.Itbis stressful, having that responsibility. It is theatre, and the surgeon is the principle actor and everyone else supports them. Not acknowledging the support team is extremely poor form.

The attitude of support staff to surgeons can be fawning. General public think that if there’s a scar, then a. It was worth the price and b. The problem will be 100% fixed. Surgery is just another tool.in the fight against disease.

Equine (male) surgeons have historically been known to throw instruments. Tantrums should always be punished, with no exception.

"Do no harm" by Henry Marsh is enlightening.

Is that true? That's a bit terrifying! 😯

I had a very interesting conversation with one surgeon, his words… “most of us thrive and look for patient adulation, I’m the same it becomes addictive “.

And if you think about it, most patients are very grateful, these skilled medicos are responsible for very often saving lives and alleviating pain.

I didnt know that about pilots althought it makes perfect sense. I know a guy who is a pilot and he is honestly the biggest prick it has ever been my misfortune to meet.

Benedict Cumberbatch was in a radio comedy called Cabin Pressue (absolutely brilliant, I highly recommend it) and one of the characters described a pilot as "a smooth talking old smarm pot who think's he is the best thing to happen to the sky since rainbows" and that describes the man I know very well!