Sorry it's another cash in hand job one

[wheredoesitend]

Not a bashing thread, just a miserable situation and want to know what could happen if it gets reported. (Yes one really is naively loose lipped about it all.)

A disabled friend's carer is topping up their carers allowance with an unskilled cash in hand job because it is all they can get.
Not stopping them providing 35 hrs+ care but affects when they can provide it. They sometimes skimp a couple of days then do a 10 hour blitz to catch up washing etc.

It's really obvious to others that friend is allowing the care to be arranged around the carers availability, not the actual care needs. (others are picking up the slack and turning a blind eye as they cant do 35+ hours of care needs)

Friend says it's still much better than having agency carers and any care was arranged round their needs too. (Got up at midday, put to bed in the afternoon, often poor care, didn't care, didn't come, no language at all, moldy washing etc)

The carer is not that good and cant easily get work. Has obvious MH problems.
The cash in hand job is made for them. It's flexible and low standards.
Not many hours but paying almost 3 times the CA earnings.

They didn't cope on UC and got sanctioned out. They want to work, but few want them. (normally get let go in days)
They get CA and PIP. Unlikely either would be affected if they could declare job.

But they cant (they did ask employer if they could be legal) and can't find anything else. They aren't rolling in it. Rent and CT debts mount up, then they sub let their room out to pay it off.

If the job was legal they'd pay around £550 a year tax and NI on total earnings as the carers allowance gets taxed too. (they'd be within CA rules)

I've tried to help both but don't see what can be done. So the AIBU is to do nothing about a sad comparatively low level fraud.?

But what I'd really like to get out of the thread is to know about:

What could or would happen to the carer if they get caught? (apart from a breakdown)

Could anything happen to friend for knowing and accommodating the carer's illegal job hours as the CA is awarded for her care? (apart from loosing carer)

They'd have no way to get sanctioned on Universal Credit if they're claiming carers allowance. There's no work requirements. Nothing to get sanctioned over. So something is missing from this story.

Yep this. You don’t have the whole story here OP.

They got sanctioned before they had the job as a carer (or the other one) but wont go back on it, say they can't cope.

@SerendipityJane That's absolutely not what this thread is about. It's a miserably sad situation for everyone.

The carer isn't getting 'something for nothing.' They are working hard as best as they can but very chaotically. They would love their job to be legal.

The friend paid taxes for years before they became disabled so I don't think you can say they are 'getting something for nothing' either.

I've put the total the carer isn't paying to show how small the fraud is and hope I've given enough details to show it isn't because they are trying to not pay tax and NI. They don't have a way to.

They are quite trapped by a lack of work and fear of UC systems and going downhill mentally again trying to make them work, after their previous experiences.

So the cash in hand employer is not deducting tax or NI off the person's earnings? Is that not the responsibility of the employer.
The person is providing care so they are not falsely claiming carers allowance.
Not quite sure why you are so bothered, claiming UC would cost the taxpayer a lot more than £550 a year.
By all means shop them to HMRC though.

If they'd pay tax on their job then it's likely their carers would be affected as you can only earn around £195 a week before it stops (and that's a bit under the tax allowance)

@Tartanboots I absolutely don't want to shop them! I'm terrified someone eventually will, because if I know this much many others will too.

I want to know what could happen to them because I'm trying to help both of them and think they are burying their heads in the sand about the carer getting caught and possibly getting my friend into trouble.

The carer seems to think this less frightening (or probably less likely) than being unable to cope with UC requirements.

I want them to recognize that even with low amounts of money involved it would still be seen as fraud and one maybe both, would be in trouble.
They think I'm catastrophising. Maybe I am.

@ARichtGoodDram They are over by only four pounds per week, less than the expenses they have for consumables they have to buy to do the work.

I have been trying to help them to see if they could do what they are doing legally.

I took the idea it wouldn't change their CA on if they could be legal they could be self employed and legally offset those expenses and be at the right amount.

They talked to PIP about it theoretically, and got told if they where to get that level of work it would be encouraged not penalized.

IF it could be legal I think the amount they'd be taxed on after the personal allowance is a bit under £2000 a year so I did the figure on that and added the NI.
But when they went to the employer they said no to paying them on the books, take it or leave it. So that idea became redundant.But that's where the figures came from.

If your friend is being cared for, 35 hours a week, and is happy with the care being arranged around the carers other responsibilities, I think you should leave well alone. You have warned them of the risks, they are adults, it is not your concern.

@queenMab99 I agree It isn't my concern currently.
A lot of my worry is selfish. If it gets reported and the results are what I think they could be, it will become my problem to pick up all the bits.
Both are adult but vulnerable. I don't want to explain my exact connection or responsibility to either but it's to both and I will also be badly affected.

Are you worried that the carer is claiming carers allowance but earning too much in another job? Ie more than £195 per week?I can’t quite understand the problem

• did you calculate that they can earn CA, PIP and also earn up to £196 or less a week after tax, National Insurance and expenses, without it impacting either @wheredoesitend ?

https://www.gov.uk/carers-allowance/eligibility

If its cash in hand, the only way they will find out if its reported to DWP. Leave it alone.

Pip isn't affected by income in any way. The only way a job would affect their pip would be if it contradicted what's on their form. It's not income related.

When you say they're over by £4 a week do you mean they earn £200 a week cash in hand? That's £10400 a year. They'd pay around £2200 a year tax and NI on that as including their carers they'd have a taxable income of £20592

Someone on carers allowance gets about £60 a week. It isnt a care job.
You cannot liken this to a paid carer from an agency.

@beetr00 I may have things wrong I believe they are allowed to earn up £196, and the CA pw before tax and NI. The PIP amount is irrelevant (and the work is rare in being tolerant of their problems)
But because they are four pounds over the £196 they would have to become self employed and claim back expenses they have. (Now know the employer wont take them on the books anyway)

@AllotmentHappy I don't want them reported, I'm worried they will be and wont be ok if they are, and want them to understand what could happen to them.

@ARichtGoodDram £200 pw, and guessed the CA at £80pw, so it's a total income of £14,500 -12,570 personal allowance leaving tax to pay on £1990 and NI which I estimated at £398 tax and £159 Ni so roughly £550 (actually £557)

@Branleuse Agree though think its around £80 so still nothing for 35+hours.
But I know that if the carer go's on holiday for a weekend they have to report it as a break in caring, and have to say who will cover, so I'm assuming the carer is expected to be there every day? Maybe that's wrong and it's only if they are on holiday there is an issue, rather than two three days doing something else then making up time the rest of the week.

What happens if you get found out earning too much for carers allowance is it will be stopped and you will owe hmrc what you claimed while not entitled to it. You can pay it in installments (i owed about 1600 they take £140 off my UC)
however i dont know how it would work regarding not paying tax..best look into that separately

Your friend wants this carer and has said that. Reporting them runs the risk of them no longer being your friend. Snitches are rarely liked even when it’s to do with fraud.

@SleepyRedPanda The last thing I'm doing is reporting them! I'm trying to convince them not to be in a position someone does! I think the fraud is small in the big scheme of things, but the penalties could be big.

@Katemax82 Thank you, that's helpful.. Though the carer would have no way to pay it back at the moment.

Same here, what is the issue here, what would you be reporting OP?

Are they claiming carers allowance or are they being paid to provide care via direct payments? None of what you have said is how carers allowance works and lots of people have carers as well as an ‘unpaid carer’ claiming carers allowance.

I'M not reporting anything. I'm worried someone will report the carer for having a cash in hand job and the person cared for, for aiding it by arranging their care around it.