Sorry it's another cash in hand job one

[wheredoesitend]

Not a bashing thread, just a miserable situation and want to know what could happen if it gets reported. (Yes one really is naively loose lipped about it all.)

A disabled friend's carer is topping up their carers allowance with an unskilled cash in hand job because it is all they can get.
Not stopping them providing 35 hrs+ care but affects when they can provide it. They sometimes skimp a couple of days then do a 10 hour blitz to catch up washing etc.

It's really obvious to others that friend is allowing the care to be arranged around the carers availability, not the actual care needs. (others are picking up the slack and turning a blind eye as they cant do 35+ hours of care needs)

Friend says it's still much better than having agency carers and any care was arranged round their needs too. (Got up at midday, put to bed in the afternoon, often poor care, didn't care, didn't come, no language at all, moldy washing etc)

The carer is not that good and cant easily get work. Has obvious MH problems.
The cash in hand job is made for them. It's flexible and low standards.
Not many hours but paying almost 3 times the CA earnings.

They didn't cope on UC and got sanctioned out. They want to work, but few want them. (normally get let go in days)
They get CA and PIP. Unlikely either would be affected if they could declare job.

But they cant (they did ask employer if they could be legal) and can't find anything else. They aren't rolling in it. Rent and CT debts mount up, then they sub let their room out to pay it off.

If the job was legal they'd pay around £550 a year tax and NI on total earnings as the carers allowance gets taxed too. (they'd be within CA rules)

I've tried to help both but don't see what can be done. So the AIBU is to do nothing about a sad comparatively low level fraud.?

But what I'd really like to get out of the thread is to know about:

What could or would happen to the carer if they get caught? (apart from a breakdown)

Could anything happen to friend for knowing and accommodating the carer's illegal job hours as the CA is awarded for her care? (apart from loosing carer)

Well definitely the person being cared for isn’t doing anything wrong here, there is no issue here and if they’re happier with this arrangement than what they had before then I wouldn’t worry about that side of it.

The carer is of course knowingly being paid off the books illegally and yes could face consequences if this were reported. It looks like realistically the risk is getting fined and having to repay any benefits that have been illegally claimed such as the CA (don’t think the PIP would be an issue as it’s not means tested anyway). They may also lose the right to access certain benefits in future. Technically there is a risk of imprisonment but in reality for something like this sort of low level issue it seems highly unlikely to happen. The employer would definitely be in significantly more hot water, but you’re right that potentially being fined and having to repay benefits would leave the carer in serious financial difficulties.

Only she can decide if it’s a risk worth taking and it sounds like for her she feels it is, so I think I’d stay out of it. I do get why it leaves you feeling anxious as someone who may need to pick up the pieces if it ends badly though. Especially if this person is not discreet. I also personally would find this hard as I dislike dishonesty generally and would also be anxious about the potential consequences always waiting for the other shoe to drop. But there are lots of people who do this day-in day-out without worrying about it in the slightest and the reality is that it’s such a low level sort of offence nobody is likely to be all that interested unless they’re really forced to take an interest. So you probably are overestimating the actual risks of this situation. It’s a shame she can’t find a legal job doing the same thing elsewhere?

I hope I'm wrong but think their PIP would be suspended for not telling them too, They wouldn't have any income to live or pay back with

They only have to inform pip if their health condition has changed.

The job would only impact PIP if it contradicted their form.

So my DD has gone from one wfh role to another - no need to inform them.
If she suddenly became a postie after her form said she cannot safely and reliably go out alone then she'd have to inform them about the change in condition

I think you probably are catastrophising a bit.

Re the carers allowance - care is happening (more than in many cases I've seen!) so I wouldn't worry too much, if earnings were being declared it would potentially reduce a bit.

Re. the cash in hand job, even if it was reported I doubt anything would get actioned due to the low amounts involved

That's interesting about CA stopping completely, I thought it reduced £ for £ on earnings but am probably out of date

Reading everything maybe I am overestimating the risks of the carer getting caught and catastrophising. Thinking the person being cared for could get in trouble as well as their care arrangements collapsing made it feel worse.

I keep seeing things about people who have committed any kind of fraud related to benefits being reported and evidence filmed and exposed in the press. (maybe because I know about this I'm noticing it more)

Then the CA letter saying even 1p over the allowance amount (IF they had even declared a job) would make them ineligible for CA and liable to action, which made it sound very serious. It sounds like the action taken is making them pay it all back, not prosecuting them at least.
Knowing it all makes me uncomfortable and anxious and not want to be around. But for reasons I don't want to explain I have to be.

The carer doesn't see any risks because they don't see risk until after things go wrong. Then they don't believe it is their fault and think it's unreasonable.

The place they are doing the other work seems like a place that wouldn't surprise anyone if it was raided for something illegal, but the carer doesn't recognize that sort of thing or risks generally.

The conditions of the job do fit with what the carer told PIP about their condition.
I don't think there are many other jobs that would take them, fit, and not mind if it wasn't done that well as long as it is done.

I think it's UC that takes CA off £ for £, but don't understand how it works, just that the carer didn't believe things could happen to them but things did and they are now afraid of them, but don't seem to apply that fear to breaking other rules.

PIP is not means tested

I can't see any impact on the person receiving care.
For the person not paying tax, well I guess there could be sanctions if they were found out. I guess the biggest question is, is the employer likely to get caught? Do they employ lots of people on the same basis? In the real world lots of people work cash in hand.
I know you have no intention of making it worse. Is there any scope at all to tell her to shut her mouth?

No, as OP has said, as soon as you earn 1p over the earnings limit you lose the whole lot. It is very unfair. I think the government has pledged to look into it.

@wheredoesitend I think you need to keep out of it. The only thing you can realistically do is report to DWP. Do you really want to do that for the sake of a person being a few quid over the CA earnings limit? The job is cash in hand, so very unlikely DWP will find out.

Well I guess they're doing what they can to get by. If they're not defrauding the UC then there's worse crimes on earth than doing a cash in hand job. It's sad definitely. But I don't really see what you or anyone else can do to help. I'm glad you don't want to get them in trouble. I think that would be quite cruel.

This is how I look at it

A carer is supposed to provide 35 hours care per week & receives care allowance & National Insurance contributions are paid for the carer

The sane carer can work on top of doing the care & earn up to £196 per week & receive carers allowance
Example
£196÷£12=16 hours of work

Total hours
35+16=51 hours (care & work)

We all know that some carers provide more than 35 hours of care per week

The carer could also work more than 16 hours, but the Government is saying in that case, they will not pay carers allowance.
Work would include paying National Insurance & tax

In theory the person could provide

35 hours of care

35 to 40 hours of paid work

But would not be entitled to claim carers allowance

I expect many people do this as part of their normal life

Is the job permanent? Is there any time off? Because if someone reported it, which is unlikely in itself, then their income over the time might well average out to an amount under the threshold.

Alternatively, could the carer declare themselves self employed and declare the income that way? They don't have to give details about their clients or have the paperwork, the company paying out would be responsible for their end of that. To HMRC there would be a tax return at the end of the year with money in and out.