Sorry it's another cash in hand job one

[wheredoesitend]

Not a bashing thread, just a miserable situation and want to know what could happen if it gets reported. (Yes one really is naively loose lipped about it all.)

A disabled friend's carer is topping up their carers allowance with an unskilled cash in hand job because it is all they can get.
Not stopping them providing 35 hrs+ care but affects when they can provide it. They sometimes skimp a couple of days then do a 10 hour blitz to catch up washing etc.

It's really obvious to others that friend is allowing the care to be arranged around the carers availability, not the actual care needs. (others are picking up the slack and turning a blind eye as they cant do 35+ hours of care needs)

Friend says it's still much better than having agency carers and any care was arranged round their needs too. (Got up at midday, put to bed in the afternoon, often poor care, didn't care, didn't come, no language at all, moldy washing etc)

The carer is not that good and cant easily get work. Has obvious MH problems.
The cash in hand job is made for them. It's flexible and low standards.
Not many hours but paying almost 3 times the CA earnings.

They didn't cope on UC and got sanctioned out. They want to work, but few want them. (normally get let go in days)
They get CA and PIP. Unlikely either would be affected if they could declare job.

But they cant (they did ask employer if they could be legal) and can't find anything else. They aren't rolling in it. Rent and CT debts mount up, then they sub let their room out to pay it off.

If the job was legal they'd pay around £550 a year tax and NI on total earnings as the carers allowance gets taxed too. (they'd be within CA rules)

I've tried to help both but don't see what can be done. So the AIBU is to do nothing about a sad comparatively low level fraud.?

But what I'd really like to get out of the thread is to know about:

What could or would happen to the carer if they get caught? (apart from a breakdown)

Could anything happen to friend for knowing and accommodating the carer's illegal job hours as the CA is awarded for her care? (apart from loosing carer)

Who reports people these days for having a cash in hand job? Working cash in hand means what exactly?

My window cleaner and chimney sweep only take cash, theyre both businesses

And no, no one is going to take action against the caree for 'aiding' their carer to have another job by arranging their care needs around their carers availability!!!

@yeesh Ordinary carers allowance, not direct payments. They claim carers allowance and are allowed to earn up to £196 as well pw.
But, the job isn't on the books, so they aren't declaring it at all, as well as it being a few pounds over the amount (which could have been dealt with, if the employer would put them on the books) and thy are being very indiscreet.

The person they are caring for is living round the carers job needs to make it possible as carer is struggling managing both. They also aren't being discreet. (but maybe they don't need to be)

Can they gift aid £4 pw to take their earnings under the threshold.

They sound pretty good to me.

@soupyspoon I used 'cash in hand' but maybe I should be saying 'not on the books' not paying tax or NI. No normal protections of a normal job. Regular casual untaxed labor.
Lots of people in the news for things that have been reported.
I assume the three !!! means that sounds ridiculous, and I don't need to worry about them being reported for anything, only the carers position.
Maybe the carer is right that only the employer is doing any wrong.

The person being cared for is not doing anything 'wrong' at all

The carer, well Im not sure, are you saying there is an earnings limit over which someone cant get carers allowance? and the carer earns over this? If so, what happens if they earn a few quid over, does their carers allownace get cut completely or does it just go down a bit?
Is the carer able to do just a couple fewer hours?

Would gift aid by the carer mean it wasn't over the earnings limit? Another thing I don't know much about.
They are a good person just don't do anything that well. If there was a way to pay the tax and NI without getting in trouble, I think they'd be happy do it.

If they earn so much as 50p over the £196 a week carers allowance stops.

Disgraceful, its a pittance anyway, I never know how it continues to be a legal amount given its meant to represent 35 hours care but is nowhere near the amount for NMW of 35 hours.

I would say to carer, just cut half hour out of their working week, then they'll be under the limit.

Thank you for the person being paid for info.

Carer can't do less hours or be paid slightly less.
Should be declaring job to CA.
Job is illegal in tax and NI terms, it doesn't exist.
Also because of this undeclared to CA breaking their rules, and over the allowed earnings limit by just £4 per week.
CA is literally cut completely and all must be returned if only 1p over, according to their letter. (I have been shown this letter. Hard to believe but definitely correct)
They become ineligible for all the CA at just 1p over!

They can put money into a pension. If they get £4 over the allowance, then they could legitimately put £8/week into a pension and then they'd be fine.

So help them to set up something like a Nest pension and set up a DD for £40 a month.

@soupyspoon It isn't possible. The person employing them has been clear.
Its this amount of money for this amount of time. Simple task list.
Come in, do them. Don't need to speak or make eye contact. Go away until next shift.
Culture seems to be: don't give me problems, you don't get problems
The job isn't on any books, and there is no tax or NI paid either end.

If they weren't getting CA the situation would be quite simple apart from maybe risking getting prosecuted for not paying tax and NI. I know the employer could get prosecuted by HMRC. I don't know if workers can be.
It sounds like from what @Katemax82 said, they just had to pay the CA back, for earning over the limit, not prosecution, but I'm assuming CA knew they had a job, and they just earned too much.. I'm beginning to hope that might be the same with HMRC over the tax and NI, but don't know if there are penalties for not declaring their job in the first place, or for failing to declare a change of circumstances to PIP. (they asked about it theoretically, but didn't declare it as the employer wont put them on the books)

@Doopdoopdeedoo Is money into a pension not counted as earnings?
If that's so, it would make one part of it all less of an issue.

Carers allowance is £83 per week
Could anyone live on that alone ???
Carers are allowed to work & earn up to £196 per week, without loosing the carer allowance

There are many Carers who cannot work & may live in poverty

https://www.gov.uk/carers-allowance/if-youre-working-

The rate the Government pay should be higher

In my case I was earning below the threshold then got a £5 and hour payrise which took me over, but being stupid I kept quiet about it but got found out, which is probably more easy for hmrc as they can just check your taxable earnings

A carer does not have to live with the person that they care for

Just found this about CA: What Counts as Earnings:
Earnings for this purpose include income from employment and self-employment after deducting income tax, National Insurance contributions, and half of your pension contributions.

They can't deduct tax and NI but can deduct 50% of pension contributions once are set up to do that! Thank you!
So at least there's a way for them to be within the CA amounts, which would bring things down to not declaring the extra work to CA or PIP, and not paying tax or NI on part of their earnings. Might be more survivable for teem if it all went wrong.

I know you're trying to help them, but it doesn't sound likely that the employer will let them become a proper employee.

And if it's a job that means they'd be an employee and fit the terms of that then they can't just be self employed because they want to be. There's rules around that precisely to stop dodgy employers avoiding the tax and NI contributions.

Get person to pay into a personal SIPP pension ?

@PensionUpliftAdd They can't live on it.
It's really sad that the one job they've been able to find that they can do and will take them, isn't a legal one.
Apart from the money, having any outside job is good for them, It's the first one in years. It doesn't work that wonderfully for the person they care for, but they understand and between everyone it works enough at the moment.

@ARichtGoodDram No they wont be making them an employee. Or letting them bill them as self employed even if all the other conditions for self employment could be met. As soon as the carer started asking about any changes they got a firm No. 'take it or leave it.'

Thank you for sharing. I'm sorry that's what happened with you. At least you had declared the job in the first place. I can see how easy it is to be lulled into thinking it cant matter that much when you're doing so much for so little and still have to live.

The allowances should be higher so carers aren't expected to work so much to still just scrape by. So much money is already saved by what carers do.

a few thoughts...

if they're not 'on the books' i don't see how they could set up gift aid from their wages.

similarly, any pension couldn't be attached to their workplace/ work.

if someone is not officially employed, or receiving benefits for being unemployed, they can still make voluntary NI payments to ensure they keep their full state pension eligibility. so perhaps they could do this, thereby bringing their earnings back under the £196 threshold?

alternatively, would it be impossible to say to the employer "please pay me £196 a week, instead of £200" - preferably negotiating to do half an hour less than they do now, but even working the same hours as now, this would be worth doing as it minimises the risk of them losing/ being forced to 'pay back' any carers' allowance money (which seems to happen to loads of people whose earnings go over by pence).

most dodgy employers would be very happy to pay their undocumented employees even less, so i don't get why they wouldn't agree to this request.

Thanks for ideas.
It's just a guess but not wanting to even discuss getting the same work out of them for less money and low standards just accepted, makes me think it's part of some sort of money laundering into something else,

I don't know if I am catastrophising but think if all gets gets found out, not declaring the extra work might leave the carer not having being entitled to claim CA and having to pay it all back anyway.
I hope I'm wrong but think their PIP would be suspended for not telling them too, They wouldn't have any income to live or pay back with.

There has been a lot of publicity about carers allowance... When a carer inadvertently has gone over the earnings limit... Sometimes by only a couple of pounds averaged out over months..

It's a cliff edge benefit.... They are then made to pay back ALL the carers allowance... Not just the couple of pounds...

https://www.carersuk.org/help-and-advice/financial-support/carer-s-allowance/carer-s-allowance-and-overpayments/

And the latter section of this article...:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13296543/DWP-threatens-unpaid-carers-prosecution-minor-breaches-benefits-rules-fraudster-gang.html