Page 37 | To think that there is no hope here?

BIossomtoes · 03/08/2025 18:31

poetryandwine · 03/08/2025 18:26

And presumably a military chef and a detonations expert have salaries reflecting their skill sets and working conditions. I see nothing wrong wrong with retiring them both on the same percentage of final salary.

Napoleon was correct when he said that an army marches on its stomach.

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Actually they don’t. The military salary scale is rank based. So the sergeant who is a chef earns the same as the sergeant who is an ammunition technician. Of course not all ammunition technicians defuse bombs, some of them are essentially warehouse keepers.

poetryandwine · 03/08/2025 18:33

JamesMacGill · 03/08/2025 16:28

So in my line of work I hear benefit claimants describe their financial circumstances on a daily basis. It is quite rare now to find a household that subsists off UC alone, and doesn’t claim some form of disability benefit on top of this. It really isn’t unusual to have a household which is claiming UC, one of the adults claiming PIP, and DLA for 2 or even 3 children. Sometimes more. All together that’s about £60,000 per year? It used to be very rare that a person would have 2 or 3 children so disabled they needed benefits; now it’s really really common.

The expectations continue to rise, the taxation continues to fall, so taxes go up. The expectations rise again. I think what will happen is Reform or similar will get in and just brutally cut all of them. It’s a shame but we’ve tried a softer approach with Labour and it’s just sabotaged by people who think the country exists as a welfare system.

I am left of centre but agree something is broken. Mental health claims have skyrocketed and I’ve seen up close that some are opting out of employment who might benefit from working at least part time.

I worry very much that tightening PIP will hit some of the wrong people, but I also think it will catch some who need a kick. However whether we have the work for them is a separate question. That is an equally big worry.

poetryandwine · 03/08/2025 18:35

BIossomtoes · 03/08/2025 18:31

Actually they don’t. The military salary scale is rank based. So the sergeant who is a chef earns the same as the sergeant who is an ammunition technician. Of course not all ammunition technicians defuse bombs, some of them are essentially warehouse keepers.

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Well that’s fine. The chefs are not abusing the system so no complaints, though in an ideal world there would be hazard pay for some.

BIossomtoes · 03/08/2025 19:02

Everyone gets “hazard pay”. They’re all trained for deployment.

Papyrophile · 03/08/2025 19:15

Nor do I have a problem with either retiring on a percentage of salary after 25 years service. But if you did dangerous tasks, I'd like to think your pension was better than a military chef, or is that unreasonable!

BIossomtoes · 03/08/2025 21:00

Papyrophile · 03/08/2025 19:15

Nor do I have a problem with either retiring on a percentage of salary after 25 years service. But if you did dangerous tasks, I'd like to think your pension was better than a military chef, or is that unreasonable!

It is a bit because it’s hierarchical and salaries are based on rank. Theoretically everyone is deployable so subject to risk in a war situation.

Rosscameasdoody · 03/08/2025 21:22

Jennps · 03/08/2025 10:45

That’s what she was saying. Maybe she will come back and clarify for your comprehension.

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My comprehension’s just fine thanks. Just because my views don’t align with yours doesn’t mean I’m stupid.

Tiredjusttired · 04/08/2025 07:16

Taxed · 03/08/2025 12:00

It's had not to conclude that there is definitely no hope for the UK when so many fail to acknowledge the cold hard facts and instead dive into weeds in an attempt to make the problem go away.

However, you cut it, the country cannot afford to tax the minority to fund the majority, regardless of what constitutes the growing majority. The composition of that majority may change and there may be a myriad of reasons why certain groups or even individuals are in that majority. Nevertheless, it has reached an unsustainable point where it is no longer beneficial to the UK to increase the taxes levied on the minority. We have reached the point of diminishing returns.

What is very worrying is that more people are on sick related benefits than before. The wealth of a nation is correlated with the health of its people. Why is happening? Is the answer to tax more to support a nation that is sicker and getting sicker? Or is the solution to tackle the root of the problem?

On another note, I marvel at those who feel such anger and contempt at those who are financially well-off. Reading some posts, it sounds like high income folks should be punished for being "lucky" and "undeserving". It's all very warped and quite frankly, a disastrous way of thinking for the future of the UK. Taxes should be paid to support those who, for whatever reason, simply cannot help themselves. It should be a safety net and not a way of life. When taxation begins to harm the future prosperity of a country and in turn, the well-being of the very people who rely on state support, then surely it is time to go back to the drawing board.

What you are describing is what happens when a society transitions to a socialist state. Unfortunately, many on this forum are too young or have not received an education about what happens in the long run (East Germany in the 1970s, Hungary in the 1950s). The sentiments about higher earners being ‘lucky’ are all part of this trend.

BIossomtoes · 04/08/2025 08:54

That’s certainly not what’s happening here. The current government is a very long way from socialist. There hasn’t been a socialist government in the UK since the 1970s.

ETA East Germany was communist.

Ellietee123 · 04/08/2025 09:04

Taxed · 03/08/2025 12:00

It's had not to conclude that there is definitely no hope for the UK when so many fail to acknowledge the cold hard facts and instead dive into weeds in an attempt to make the problem go away.

However, you cut it, the country cannot afford to tax the minority to fund the majority, regardless of what constitutes the growing majority. The composition of that majority may change and there may be a myriad of reasons why certain groups or even individuals are in that majority. Nevertheless, it has reached an unsustainable point where it is no longer beneficial to the UK to increase the taxes levied on the minority. We have reached the point of diminishing returns.

What is very worrying is that more people are on sick related benefits than before. The wealth of a nation is correlated with the health of its people. Why is happening? Is the answer to tax more to support a nation that is sicker and getting sicker? Or is the solution to tackle the root of the problem?

On another note, I marvel at those who feel such anger and contempt at those who are financially well-off. Reading some posts, it sounds like high income folks should be punished for being "lucky" and "undeserving". It's all very warped and quite frankly, a disastrous way of thinking for the future of the UK. Taxes should be paid to support those who, for whatever reason, simply cannot help themselves. It should be a safety net and not a way of life. When taxation begins to harm the future prosperity of a country and in turn, the well-being of the very people who rely on state support, then surely it is time to go back to the drawing board.

I suggest that you watch Gary's Economics on Youtube, he has 1.38M subscribers. Gary Stevenson was a trader who made millions on the trading floor betting on the economy getting worse due to the growing inequality in this country and elsewhere. He explains how a more equitable society can be achieved by taxing wealth not work. Wealth would be regarded as assets of more that £10 million.

poetryandwine · 04/08/2025 12:21

Papyrophile · 03/08/2025 19:15

Nor do I have a problem with either retiring on a percentage of salary after 25 years service. But if you did dangerous tasks, I'd like to think your pension was better than a military chef, or is that unreasonable!

All down to your salary. ‘Twas ever thus. When did government policies ever satisfy individual ideas of fairness?

MyNameIsX · 05/08/2025 08:01

The topics that REALLY matter - FGS.

Jeremy Corbyn has accused Angela Rayner of hammering a “nail in the coffin” of community allotments after she said councils could sell them off to raise money.

The former Labour leader criticised his former colleague after The Telegraph revealed she had agreed for eight allotments across England to be sold since last year’s general election.

thepastinsidethepresent · 05/08/2025 22:19

BIossomtoes · 04/08/2025 08:54

That’s certainly not what’s happening here. The current government is a very long way from socialist. There hasn’t been a socialist government in the UK since the 1970s.

ETA East Germany was communist.

Edited

Finally a sensible comment about this!

Abitlosttoday · 05/08/2025 22:22

PurpleChrayn · 28/07/2025 07:57

It’s bad.

DH and I are seriously considering moving to Israel. Even an active war zone seems safer and better than the UK right now for us.

What an absolute wassock of a comment.

Zov · 05/08/2025 22:29

Abitlosttoday · 05/08/2025 22:22

What an absolute wassock of a comment.

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That is a humdinger isn't it?!

justasking111 · 05/08/2025 22:47

Abitlosttoday · 05/08/2025 22:22

What an absolute wassock of a comment.

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What a wonderful word, haven't heard it for many years. Must start using it

OchreSnail · 05/08/2025 22:52

Taxed · 28/07/2025 07:36

52.6% of UK individuals are reliant on the State (that is 35 million people). Only 47.4% are net contributors. How did we get here?

AIBU to think that the UK is now a declining economy that will never recover if this continues to be the case?

I am 49 and a high earner (just shy of the top 1%). My husband is also a high earner and we are thinking of leaving. We don't know where but we know we have to as the situation in the UK is getting worse not better. The only thing that is keeping us here is our son, who is still in secondary school. I am actively encouraging him to consider a future outside of the UK.

I genuinely feel that being ambitious and successful is not worth it in the UK. People hate you for it and want to see you penalised. They think that whatever you do to earn the money it must be easy and a breeze. That you are greedy and need to be made to pay for doing well. Just last week, I heard that the government might be thinking of implementing a charge, payable by high earners, to access the NHS. Everything is about taxing the already heavily taxed even more and few want to face up to the fact that this is unsustainable when you have most of your people relying on the State to live.

People complain about the immigrants but they make up a tiny proportion of 35 million.

I feel disliked for doing well and just can't see a future here and it is making me angry and sad. I believe in having a welfare state, in helping those who are in need but 52.6%? The country is on its knees when most of its people are in need. That is like a developing country not a developed and thriving economy.

Sorry for the long rant. I'm just tired, sad and have just about lost hope of enjoying life in the UK.

Your posts reads as if this percentage of people is dependent on welfare benefits, but a quick Google search shows its a much wider count than that, including people who are:
receiving the state pension
receiving universal credit, including unemployed people;
Higher Education students;
employed by a Higher Education institution;
public sector employees.

So assume of those people will have paid in all their working lives, some are actively employed, and some will be paying back via student loans. (source: Adam Smith Institute: https://www.adamsmith.org/press-releases/over-half-of-brits-reliant-on-state-for-their-income

Your post comes across as tabloid-level benefits baiting, so I hope this article clarifies the numbers for you.

Over Half of Brits Reliant on State for Their Income — Adam Smith Institute

According to new analysis by the Adam Smith Institute, 52.1% of British adults are reliant on the state for their livelihood; In an accompanying comment, the Leader of the Opposition, the Rt Hon Kemi Badenoch MP, warns that a ‘culture of depend...

https://www.adamsmith.org/press-releases/over-half-of-brits-reliant-on-state-for-their-income

MyNameIsX · 06/08/2025 03:26

Rachel Reeves must raise taxes immediately to plug a fresh £50bn hole in the public finances, according to one of Britain’s most respected economics organisations.

Slowing economic growth, a weak jobs market and the cost of Labour’s about-turns on welfare spending have combined to plunge government finances deeper into the red, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (Niesr) warned.

The Chancellor is now on course to miss her borrowing targets by £41.2bn, the think tank predicted. If she wants to restore the £9.9bn of headroom maintained since last year’s Budget, Ms Reeves must therefore raise taxes or cut spending by £51.1bn.

David Aikman, director of Niesr, said it was increasingly difficult for the Chancellor to avoid raising taxes on working people if she wanted to maintain her fiscal rules and stick to spending promises.

The forecasts will worry Downing Street given Niesr’s stature. It is Britain’s oldest independent economic think tank and was co-founded by John Maynard Keynes, the British economist who has helped to shape modern Left-wing thought.

Niesr’s economic model is highly respected globally and used by organisations such as the Treasury and the International Monetary Fund. Its president, Sir Paul Tucker, is the former deputy governor of the Bank of England.

DAMN LABOUR.

MoneyTaIks · 06/08/2025 03:30

Yeah, the country is declining but I don't think I'd be too worried if I was rolling in it myself.

EasternStandard · 06/08/2025 06:50

MyNameIsX · 06/08/2025 03:26

Rachel Reeves must raise taxes immediately to plug a fresh £50bn hole in the public finances, according to one of Britain’s most respected economics organisations.

Slowing economic growth, a weak jobs market and the cost of Labour’s about-turns on welfare spending have combined to plunge government finances deeper into the red, the National Institute of Economic and Social Research (Niesr) warned.

The Chancellor is now on course to miss her borrowing targets by £41.2bn, the think tank predicted. If she wants to restore the £9.9bn of headroom maintained since last year’s Budget, Ms Reeves must therefore raise taxes or cut spending by £51.1bn.

David Aikman, director of Niesr, said it was increasingly difficult for the Chancellor to avoid raising taxes on working people if she wanted to maintain her fiscal rules and stick to spending promises.

The forecasts will worry Downing Street given Niesr’s stature. It is Britain’s oldest independent economic think tank and was co-founded by John Maynard Keynes, the British economist who has helped to shape modern Left-wing thought.

Niesr’s economic model is highly respected globally and used by organisations such as the Treasury and the International Monetary Fund. Its president, Sir Paul Tucker, is the former deputy governor of the Bank of England.

DAMN LABOUR.

Yes just listening to reports in this. What a mess they are.

It was easy to see it would happen but still, depressing to see it in reality.

MyNameIsX · 06/08/2025 06:57

EasternStandard · 06/08/2025 06:50

Yes just listening to reports in this. What a mess they are.

It was easy to see it would happen but still, depressing to see it in reality.

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Utterly depressing.

Thousands of company directors leave UK after Labour’s tax changes - FT.

justasking111 · 06/08/2025 07:29

This can't be ignored. Labour will have to bite the bullet, be ruthless, upset everyone by making swingeing cuts across every strata of society.its going to hurt everyone, rich, middling and poor.

Starmer has to ignore the unions who weren't elected by us and drive home the need for everyone to tighten their belts coz we're in for a hairy ride

Movingon2024 · 06/08/2025 07:36

MyNameIsX · 03/08/2025 15:53

Income tax payments are concentrated among those individual taxpayers with the largest incomes. The 10% of income taxpayers with the largest incomes contribute over 60% of income tax receipts.

The OBR predicts that it will collect 37.1p of every pound generated in the economy in 2028-29 - the highest level in 80 years.

Its very simple - tax this cohort beyond what they are prepared to bear, and they will cut their exposure - via the methods I have mentioned.

Incidentally, Labour have belatedly seen this with the non-doms. I have sat on numerous round tables with family offices, UHNW, non-doms, tax lawyers. I can tell you all about this.

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@MyNameIsX your posts are clear and factual thank you.

When having discussions about leaving the UK for the groups you mention, what are the other sides of the argument for them? Reasons to stay (financial not emotional etc). And do most see it as a no-brainer decision to leave, or is it not clear cut?

(i’m not in those groups sadly but pondering a return to the Uk…)

EasternStandard · 06/08/2025 08:07

justasking111 · 06/08/2025 07:29

This can't be ignored. Labour will have to bite the bullet, be ruthless, upset everyone by making swingeing cuts across every strata of society.its going to hurt everyone, rich, middling and poor.

Starmer has to ignore the unions who weren't elected by us and drive home the need for everyone to tighten their belts coz we're in for a hairy ride

I’d prefer they admitted defeat due to incredibly poor decisions and bowed out but they won’t.

MyNameIsX · 06/08/2025 08:21

Movingon2024 · 06/08/2025 07:36

@MyNameIsX your posts are clear and factual thank you.

When having discussions about leaving the UK for the groups you mention, what are the other sides of the argument for them? Reasons to stay (financial not emotional etc). And do most see it as a no-brainer decision to leave, or is it not clear cut?

(i’m not in those groups sadly but pondering a return to the Uk…)

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Thanks @Movingon2024

A good question - happy to answer.

Predominantly it’s about the arbitrage - i.e. the spread between the UK and where you are, not just now, but the direction of travel. We are one year into a socialist government, when much of the ROTW has moved/is moving to the right i.e. a liberal free market as opposed to the usual Labour tax and spend in the UK.

I recognise that much of the west has an issue with ageing demographics, a compressed tax base, and significant strains from immigration - all in the face of a US-first tariff policy, and conflict in Ukraine and the ME - with its effects on supply-side inflation.

These are macro events versus self-inflicted pain premised on an incompetent and ideological government - the current Labour government in the UK.

I have been through a few cycles, and this is looking as bad as I have ever seen in the UK.

My background is in wealth and finance, including board level - in the UK and overseas, for context.

In summary, unless you are currently in Caracas or similar (and even their sovereign debt is gradually improving), I would emphatically not return to the UK whilst Labour is in government (not in power…)

Best of luck.