To think that there is no hope here?

[Taxed]

52.6% of UK individuals are reliant on the State (that is 35 million people). Only 47.4% are net contributors. How did we get here?

AIBU to think that the UK is now a declining economy that will never recover if this continues to be the case?

I am 49 and a high earner (just shy of the top 1%). My husband is also a high earner and we are thinking of leaving. We don't know where but we know we have to as the situation in the UK is getting worse not better. The only thing that is keeping us here is our son, who is still in secondary school. I am actively encouraging him to consider a future outside of the UK.

I genuinely feel that being ambitious and successful is not worth it in the UK. People hate you for it and want to see you penalised. They think that whatever you do to earn the money it must be easy and a breeze. That you are greedy and need to be made to pay for doing well. Just last week, I heard that the government might be thinking of implementing a charge, payable by high earners, to access the NHS. Everything is about taxing the already heavily taxed even more and few want to face up to the fact that this is unsustainable when you have most of your people relying on the State to live.

People complain about the immigrants but they make up a tiny proportion of 35 million.

I feel disliked for doing well and just can't see a future here and it is making me angry and sad. I believe in having a welfare state, in helping those who are in need but 52.6%? The country is on its knees when most of its people are in need. That is like a developing country not a developed and thriving economy.

Sorry for the long rant. I'm just tired, sad and have just about lost hope of enjoying life in the UK.

I don't think it is inevitable that pensioners become reliant on the state. People need to make more provision rather while they are working for their old age. Rather than spend spend spend and expect someone else to help in the future. We need to make hay when sun shines so to speak.

Absolutely this!!

Also, if you’re just shy of the top 1% then your tax burden is higher than most, but you also have a lot more income left over afterwards - 20% of £20,000 leaves you with a lot less money than 50% of a £1,000,000!! Having the ability to invest surplus money to make more money is also a very privileged position to be in.

Out of those currently reliant on the state, many will have contributed in the past. I am a pensioner and not reliant on the state, am independent, but if I had no private pension I would have to claim benefits like pension credit and housing, etc. I worked all of my adult life until retirement and contributed.

Plenty of other current claimants have worked over the years, things happen that can change that, illness for example.

I can remember a time many years ago when women were encouraged to opt out of paying contributions and advised not to pay into an occupational pension. A lot did, I thought about it but never got round to it and am very glad but that could have been me.

You cannot judge others. I never did. My mother who died in 1995 managed to live quite comfortably until she was 86, I also had an older cousin who was chronically sick who lived until she was 84, both managed because of the welfare state. I never grudged them or others, I paid (and still pay as a pensioner), contributions so that people would have a safety net. That is what the welfare state is about, caring. Nobody knows what is around the corner.

So disrespectful to the awful situation over there.

I honestly despair, when I read nonsense like this.

The OP is right - there is no hope.

Many companies pay staff peanuts while rolling it in. Unfortunately that’s capitalism. You completely overlook why the state has to subsidise earnings OP.

Instead of being grateful and enjoying what you have you have become bitter at what you perceive other people are taking from you.

I know people who for example become very wealthy via share options in companies that arguably do no social good e.g. gambling. What about those who run private nursing homes paying staff peanuts while getting huge government grants and making large profits? What about shops that overcharge for basics? Do they “deserve it”?

I think it’s you who’s just not getting it. You keep complaining about the amount of tax you’re paying, claiming that ambition is “being battered” but you won’t (a) suggest how you might change net recipients into net contributors given the demographics we have; or (b) explain how/where you will find somewhere that isn’t grappling with very similar problems. My understanding of the US is that they spend even more than we do but with even worse outcomes for everyone.

Rather than shouting ever louder, say what you would change and in what ways.

May I suggest that one way would be encouraging employers to pay substantially more to those who are doing work requiring a greater level of skill or qualifications than minimum wage work? As the NLW keeps rising but those other salaries do not. To illustrate, my employer (an FE college which is run like a corporation) sent out a bulletin saying that lecturers (teachers) won’t (in future) earn less than £29000 pa pro rata. Which is fine, but it’s only about £4000 more than they would earn on minimum wage, it’s well below the national average, and that doesn’t seem commensurate with the qualifications, responsibilities, pressure, CPD requirements and so on. If you are correct about ambition, maybe this is an indicator of why.

Not a hypocrite. It's the system we have and it's the system that's wrong. Not the people claiming benefits.

This country is finished. Millions will leave to be replaced by more and more low skilled migration from different cultures. Starmer will be happy because he'll have got net migration down.

Then leave then. What do you want to happen? Get rid of all the OAPs, stop higher education for people who are wanting to better themselves to earn more. Stop nursery funding for those working? What is the answer?

That distortion is probably is the crux of the matter.

It has an old infrastructure and an old industrial history. It clings to much to the ancestors and antique and outmoded ways of life. It clings to the fact that 'we won the war'. It tolerates too much, and people just don't accept responsibility for their decisions and way of life. I read so much 'oh woe is me'. They wanted individual freedom and full tolerance and we are now paying the price because many people can't cope with the choices that true freedom and tolerance gives them.

FYI: that 52.1% is actually lower than it was in 2022. It was 55% in 2022(source ONS - FYE 2022).

It was 53.5% in 2011 (Source ONS).

I don't have time to find all the data sets now but I will find them later when I get back from work.

You're obviously feeling stressed and hard done by. My husband and I work and are taxed as high earners. Our son is at a state school, he's been admitted to hospital once this year. We'd be included in these figures because we access education and healthcare here. In my mind, this is what the state is for. This is what we pay taxes for. To have a society. That functions, that cares for and educates its young, looks after for its old, and supports everyone in the times when they can't be a net contributor. Perhaps the balance is a bit out of kilter at the moment but I can't fault the basic premise. Otherwise it's dog eat dog, and every household for themselves and I don't want to live like that. There are things to fix. We don't fix them by leaving.

The reason so many in the UK are not net contributors is that wages in the UK were kept artificially low for about 20 years, by allowing huge amounts of EU migration to happen flooding the economy with cheap labour. It was done for the benefit of businesses who want to make lots of money - it's easier to do so with cheap labour.
Its concentrated the wealth in the UK in the hands of a very few, and not because they 'deserve' it - they aren't working any harder than anyone else.
Just loads of loads of jobs in the UK pay far far poorer wages than they should.

The benefits bill is ridiculous, but so is the fact that the many can’t support their families on the lowest wages. The British public are debt reliant, enjoy their holidays and spending and do not plan for the future. The cost of living is unsustainable and unaffordable. It is a doom cycle.

BUT- I believe in staying and making a difference. This is where I want to live and change is possible. I want to be part of a positive change, rather than flee to another country.

What disturbs me most about this, apart from the economic stupidity, is the amount of confusion this creates.

So many different languages and nationalities.

It's a very strange thing to do. Its not going at all well.

I also think separated parents should be expected to pay to raise their own children to the best of their abilities.

At the moment child maintenance "doesn't count" even if your ex is a millionaire.

I think if a single parent wants to claim state support the other parent (where they exist) should have to pay what maintenance is calculated into a state account so it can reduce the burden on the state. Non paying should be treated like HMRC would treat non payment of tax. And there must be a resident parent. None of this 50:50 in order to make the state pay. If the parents can't decide who that is the court should decide.

@FlowerUser

Your previous post was deleted by MN, I see.

12.9 million pensioners are included in the statistics.. !

I don't think it is inevitable that pensioners become reliant on the state. People need to make more provision rather while they are working for their old age. Rather than spend spend spend and expect someone else to help in the future. We need to make hay when sun shines so to speak.

And yet here we are...it's not just pensions but healthcare costs are obviously much higher for older people.

Singapore if you're law abiding.

Why shouldn’t the OP “keep it all” when they’re the one who earnt it?!?

My own beliefs are somewhere in the middle - if you have wealth I think you should use some of it to benefit society as a whole. I'm not religious, but I do think you should treat people as you would like to be treated and help those who are less fortunate. It's morally right. The state cannot do everything, especially not when there is a furore every time those who can well afford it are asked to pay a bit more via taxation.