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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think we can’t revive the country on the backs of the poor, the struggling, or the middle class?

210 replies

ForBreezySloth · 27/07/2025 20:44

Every time there’s an economic crisis, it seems like the burden always fall on the same groups - through tax hikes, cuts to services, and stagnant wages, while the wealthiest remain untouched. Surely a country can’t truly recover if the majority of its people are struggling just to get by? Yet time and time again, we’re told we all have to “tighten our belts” - except, conveniently, those at the top.

AIBU to think this approach isn’t sustainable or is it just the reality of how economies work?

OP posts:
MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:05

footiego · 28/07/2025 07:55

The largest company now, Astra Zeneca, is also leaving London and going to the US.

Are taxes lower in the US?

I think it may have something to do with Trump's policies. He is driving companies home.
We should do the same. Maybe in a lesser destructive way. But finantial laws that mean they should set up in the country if they want to sell in the country.

Extravirginolive · 28/07/2025 08:08

Cel77 · 28/07/2025 08:05

We need to stop equalling " hard work=high salary".
A lot of poorly paid people work extremely hard.

People at the top on the whole have had their healthy share of advantages , which has allowed them to get the best of everything in order to suceed.

It's often not working hard,but having been born in a family who could offer a set of privileged circumstances.

Wealth is often passed on. Merit has its place too because you could screw up even with all your privileges, but let's not carry on with this rethoric that working hard equates financial success.

It's just not true.

One of the advantages people have is intellectual capital.

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:08

Coolasfeck · 28/07/2025 08:02

I agree with PP. This is a nation of majority beggars. You can see it on here. How many threads start with ‘AIBU to think I can start x business in this region and turn a profit with 2 years’ as opposed to ‘AIBU to think I can claim UC so I can spend more time with DC before they start school’ or ‘how do people afford to go on holiday?’ Or ‘we need to increase taxes’.

Look at real life, please.
And nope, UK is not a nation of beggars here where I live and work.

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 08:10

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 07:53

Yes, of course. Higher education.

Reading back you seem to be talking about 22 year olds with pp. Your posts don’t really tally with number of graduate jobs, nor on a more local level what young people seem to be saying about looking elsewhere.

I’m wondering what they’re studying, perhaps it’s more the lecturers’ views than students that people should stay.

KateMiskin · 28/07/2025 08:10

Cel77 · 28/07/2025 08:05

We need to stop equalling " hard work=high salary".
A lot of poorly paid people work extremely hard.

People at the top on the whole have had their healthy share of advantages , which has allowed them to get the best of everything in order to suceed.

It's often not working hard,but having been born in a family who could offer a set of privileged circumstances.

Wealth is often passed on. Merit has its place too because you could screw up even with all your privileges, but let's not carry on with this rethoric that working hard equates financial success.

It's just not true.

I think high earners have been demonised for quite some time really. I am not talking about billionaires. I am talking about those on PAYE.

It's assumed that anyone can earn a high wage and it doesn't involve sacrifice.

Extravirginolive · 28/07/2025 08:10

faffadoodledo · 28/07/2025 08:02

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m0029hd8
This is a v interesting podcast about tax and its history and future. Easily digestible for a non economist like me! Makes the point that our system should work, we should be collecting enough tax under the rules we have. But we're not. So the focus should be on better collection - catching those who don't I assume, and encouraging more to simply do the right thing.

But we are a nation of scammers aren't we? With a low level of trust in our government and systems so people aren't inclined (that's my take, not Dan Neidle's!).

You see this in shopping streets now.

Turkish barbers, nail bars, takeaways. Sad to see.

sunshinesunday · 28/07/2025 08:13

footiego · 27/07/2025 23:01

It’s a catchy story but it misrepresents how taxation and public goods actually work. In real life, wealth isn’t just “earned” through hard work and beer rounds - it’s also concentrated through inheritance, capital gains, tax loopholes, and access to opportunity. The poor aren’t freeloaders at the table - they’re the ones pouring the drinks, cleaning the bar, and still struggling to afford a seat.

very true

also agreed

Greendino20 · 28/07/2025 08:16

The government gets loads of money from tax already. They don’t manage it properly.

There should definitely be more done to collect tax from large corporations and close loopholes.

The government needs to be more protectionist now and start bigging up and investing in Britain and British workers. Close tax loopholes for large corporations and take measures to stop big British companies offshoring work for cheap Labour to the likes of India.

Taxing the middle classes any further will break them and they are the backbone of this country. People like you need to change your attitude and stop being so entitled. We’re not a communist state. People aren’t entitled to equal pay because work isn’t equal. I don't deserve the same pay as a CEO working all the hours god sends and shouldering all the risk because I have an easier, less stressful job.

I do agree corporations shouldn’t be abusing loopholes to evade tax though.

Jennps · 28/07/2025 08:16

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 07:52

We are not beggars, neither we do think we are! Most people in UK do work or study and they work hard. They save hard and party hard. And we like being kind to those who are ill or disabled.

The out of control benefits bill and the nearly £25b being each month to pay gorge interest on the debt that pays for this largesse suggests otherwise.

The bond market thinks that this country is full of beggars living off other people and debt and well beyond its means. That why this country is charged higher debt interest than almost any other so called developed country. Even Greece pays less.

Numbers don’t lie. And the bond market certainly doesn’t.

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:18

faffadoodledo · 28/07/2025 08:02

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/m0029hd8
This is a v interesting podcast about tax and its history and future. Easily digestible for a non economist like me! Makes the point that our system should work, we should be collecting enough tax under the rules we have. But we're not. So the focus should be on better collection - catching those who don't I assume, and encouraging more to simply do the right thing.

But we are a nation of scammers aren't we? With a low level of trust in our government and systems so people aren't inclined (that's my take, not Dan Neidle's!).

I think this is more like it.
Also, I do see entitlement in people like Thames Water taking bonuses off the loan given to them by the tax payer. Which THEY ARE REFUSING TO RETURN. That is unbelievable!
There is not a beggar or entitlement on a family with a disabled child having some help to keep that child comfortable. Not from my point of view. If there really is anyone mastering the system enough to abuse it, well, then change the rules. But nope. Let's call them all beggars. I find that disgusting, but well. If you do think so of all the people living in the same country, what can be done? I do not agree. I do not see UK pulled down by the members of its society, but by the guys not leading at the top, unable to keep a hold on the greed of corporations, being dishonest (ppst office scandal...) and lacking of clear objectives and plans. For me, the population works and works hard. They are generally kind and thoughtful. A real problem, not only in UK, but globally, is an aging population. Otherwise, I do not see the citizens of UK to be a drag in its economy. Nope.

myplace · 28/07/2025 08:19

When I look around, the retired are the wealthiest people. The WFA debacle was ridiculous and I’m disappointed in labour. They could have driven education about where the wealth is but they just buckled.

Given my luck, they will start to harvest the retirees round about when I get there, so we might regret the scrimping and saving that built our nest egg. We have landed just on the wrong side of most of the bonuses/savings/taxes over the last 35 years.

Are we spending wrong? The old avocado and coffee stereotype. Are the not totally skint people (who are working every penny hard) pissing money up the wall instead of saving? I see massive levels of spending on eating out, holidays, drinking, coffee and cake in comparison with previous decades.

Could we choose to invest in social goods, rather than taxing more? What would that look like?

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 08:20

Jennps · 28/07/2025 08:16

The out of control benefits bill and the nearly £25b being each month to pay gorge interest on the debt that pays for this largesse suggests otherwise.

The bond market thinks that this country is full of beggars living off other people and debt and well beyond its means. That why this country is charged higher debt interest than almost any other so called developed country. Even Greece pays less.

Numbers don’t lie. And the bond market certainly doesn’t.

If we continue to make similar decisions on taxes where they keep disincentivising growth that’ll get worse still.

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:20

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 08:10

Reading back you seem to be talking about 22 year olds with pp. Your posts don’t really tally with number of graduate jobs, nor on a more local level what young people seem to be saying about looking elsewhere.

I’m wondering what they’re studying, perhaps it’s more the lecturers’ views than students that people should stay.

I can tell you that they are staying and doing ok. People are still coming to Uni. And they are working hard at it. Post grads are still here, taking the Masters and PhDs available. And working hard at it.

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:22

KateMiskin · 28/07/2025 08:10

I think high earners have been demonised for quite some time really. I am not talking about billionaires. I am talking about those on PAYE.

It's assumed that anyone can earn a high wage and it doesn't involve sacrifice.

It is about millionaires and tax avoidance of corporations that people talk about. High hard working earners are not a problem.

KateMiskin · 28/07/2025 08:22

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:20

I can tell you that they are staying and doing ok. People are still coming to Uni. And they are working hard at it. Post grads are still here, taking the Masters and PhDs available. And working hard at it.

Our unis are propped up by international students paying double the fees, and demonised by this government as benefit scroungers. Without them most unis would collapse.

EvangelicalAboutButteredToast · 28/07/2025 08:26

That’s the advantages of being super wealthy though. You are able to off-shore your wealth and avoid tax in all sorts of legal ways. The sweet spot is supposed to be creating a fab country where rich people want to live and enjoy the lifestyle and we get as much tax out of them as possible. We managed that a few decades back when we had the influx of Russian oligarchs pouring money into London but nowadays they’d get their phones and Rolexs nicked on day one so they’d rather live somewhere cleaner and safer.

Sunflowersurprise · 28/07/2025 08:27

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:22

It is about millionaires and tax avoidance of corporations that people talk about. High hard working earners are not a problem.

Listen to some more of Dan Niedle podcasts and read some of his ideas on his Tax Policy Associates website and you’ll see that corporations and the wealthy are any going to fund our public services more. WE - the people - have to pay.

EasternStandard · 28/07/2025 08:28

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:20

I can tell you that they are staying and doing ok. People are still coming to Uni. And they are working hard at it. Post grads are still here, taking the Masters and PhDs available. And working hard at it.

Well yes they are studying but graduate level jobs are down and after they finish perhaps they’ll leave to find work elsewhere, it’s a time of life when it’s easier and I don’t really see this I have to stay for my country mindset. That seems to be an older person’s interpretation.

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:28

You need to compare the NHS and Care system bill to other European countries. Then you will really see whether it is high or not.
And it will be a nope. Surprise, surprise!

Also, you need some positivity in your views of UK.

TheFossilSister · 28/07/2025 08:45

I’m generally pretty left wing, but I think it might be sensible to point out that high earners wouldn’t have to “leave the country” if they felt they were over-taxed.

OP countered the beer-drinking analogy with a chat about how the poorest men were also pulling the pints and wiping the tables. I would assume - although I could of course be wrong and they could have a second job - that in this hypothetical world, they pulled pints for an 8 hour shift, and then went home and didn’t think about work again until they turned up for their shift the next morning. They might have seen friends, gone to the gym, watched TV or played football, and still had a full 8 hours of sleep. They weren’t laying awake at 3am worrying about whether they were pulling pints correctly. When they’re off, they’re off.

There are, I would say, a vanishingly small number of jobs earning £200k where you can do that. DH does this sort of high earning job and I used to. He usually works until 11pm as a minimum - if we are doing something in the evening, I need to book him several weeks in advance (so that he can work until 1am the night before…) He is often laying awake at night turning over a difficult work problem. I can’t remember the last time we watched TV. We have just come back from our summer holiday, where he worked for several hours every day - there was nobody else at his start up who could do the thing he was being asked to do. Our life has been like this for probably 25 years. DH grew up in modest circumstances (as did I) and he feels strongly that he wants our kids to have different opportunities. Many people would be horrified by the thought of living like this, and I’m sure that I’ll get a raft of reactions saying that he is a workaholic/ only cares about money etc. But that’s sort of the point - not everyone is willing to do this. I don’t think it’s true to say that high earners are earning “more than their fair share”, if they’re doing things that other people aren’t willing to do / living in a way that other people aren’t willing to live. They’re not somehow “cheating” or behaving badly. In some cases (not all, of course, but enough that we shouldn’t be making blanket statements), they just have a different picture of what happiness looks like from other people.

Would he carry on working like this for half the money? Probably not. What would be the point of missing that time with the kids if he didn’t have something else to improve their lives in exchange for the time (whatever your view on the rights and wrongs of that trade off)? If I were taking home the same amount as someone on £70k, I wouldn’t be willing to take on board either the hours or the stress of a £200k job - would you? He’d just do the £70k job and be calmer. Nobody needs to move abroad.

I should say that of course there are careers with that level of stress that command lower salaries - medicine is the obvious one. But even then, there’s a choice to be made for consultants between working for the NHS for a (relatively!) “normal” number of hours per week for perhaps £90k and then also doing private work during evenings and weekends and earning potentially tens of thousands more. We could tax them more but they might make different choices. Faced with two ways of taking home £X salary, where one involves twice as many hours and twice as much stress as the other, many people would choose the simpler route (and pay less tax).

Coolasfeck · 28/07/2025 08:51

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 08:28

You need to compare the NHS and Care system bill to other European countries. Then you will really see whether it is high or not.
And it will be a nope. Surprise, surprise!

Also, you need some positivity in your views of UK.

Hard disagree - positive thinking won’t help us. It’s emotion and ‘vibes’ that led to Brexit -plucky Britain won world wars and can go it alone economically in the 21st century! This did tremendous economic damage and is a large part of the reason why we are in this mess now.

Britain needs to hear reality. There is a huge amount of economic illiteracy in this country. We have doctors and nurses going on strike asking for more money. From where?

Starmer needs to hold a press conference with some Covid style slides and tell this nation the truth in an easy to understand way. Just yelling ‘£22bn black hole!’ is meaningless if you can’t explain what the impact of that loss is and what needs to be done to get us back to growth.

Saying ‘hard choices’ is not a proper explanation. Be honest and say ‘WFA and free bus passes etc need to go. Health conditions such as ‘anxiety’ not entitled to PIP, there are jobs you can still do, able bodied and not a carer, not entitled to work under 20 hrs to claim UC etc. Money saved goes into regional small business loans funds to encourage start -ups, your town lacks jobs, move to the next town.

Jennps · 28/07/2025 08:55

Coolasfeck · 28/07/2025 08:51

Hard disagree - positive thinking won’t help us. It’s emotion and ‘vibes’ that led to Brexit -plucky Britain won world wars and can go it alone economically in the 21st century! This did tremendous economic damage and is a large part of the reason why we are in this mess now.

Britain needs to hear reality. There is a huge amount of economic illiteracy in this country. We have doctors and nurses going on strike asking for more money. From where?

Starmer needs to hold a press conference with some Covid style slides and tell this nation the truth in an easy to understand way. Just yelling ‘£22bn black hole!’ is meaningless if you can’t explain what the impact of that loss is and what needs to be done to get us back to growth.

Saying ‘hard choices’ is not a proper explanation. Be honest and say ‘WFA and free bus passes etc need to go. Health conditions such as ‘anxiety’ not entitled to PIP, there are jobs you can still do, able bodied and not a carer, not entitled to work under 20 hrs to claim UC etc. Money saved goes into regional small business loans funds to encourage start -ups, your town lacks jobs, move to the next town.

Edited

Don’t worry, he’ll be forced to do that when he has to go IMF and the IMF tells this economically illiterate country that the freebies are finished.

Higgledypiggledy864 · 28/07/2025 08:59

ForBreezySloth · 27/07/2025 21:10

I’m not saying we don’t need high earners. But it’s a stretch to suggest that asking them to contribute proportionally more, especially during national crises, is the same as “punishing” them.

The idea that spending on services like cleaners and taxis equals social contribution oversimplifies what a functioning economy and fair society look like. And I’d be careful about writing off benefit claimants - many work, many can’t work for legitimate reasons, and they’re part of the same economy, often doing the hardest jobs with the least recognition. Fairness isn’t about blaming one group - it’s about everyone contributing in a way that reflects both their capacity and the collective need.

They already contribute proportionally more!!

MushMonster · 28/07/2025 09:12

Coolasfeck · 28/07/2025 08:51

Hard disagree - positive thinking won’t help us. It’s emotion and ‘vibes’ that led to Brexit -plucky Britain won world wars and can go it alone economically in the 21st century! This did tremendous economic damage and is a large part of the reason why we are in this mess now.

Britain needs to hear reality. There is a huge amount of economic illiteracy in this country. We have doctors and nurses going on strike asking for more money. From where?

Starmer needs to hold a press conference with some Covid style slides and tell this nation the truth in an easy to understand way. Just yelling ‘£22bn black hole!’ is meaningless if you can’t explain what the impact of that loss is and what needs to be done to get us back to growth.

Saying ‘hard choices’ is not a proper explanation. Be honest and say ‘WFA and free bus passes etc need to go. Health conditions such as ‘anxiety’ not entitled to PIP, there are jobs you can still do, able bodied and not a carer, not entitled to work under 20 hrs to claim UC etc. Money saved goes into regional small business loans funds to encourage start -ups, your town lacks jobs, move to the next town.

Edited

I did not mean bury our heads on the sand. I mean, UK population is hard working and we can rely on them to build the future. What we need is real leadership who can tackle the real leeches. I do not see UK as a country plagued by beggars, meaning their population. But I do see UK plagued by inaction, U-turns and going with the flow. Instead of a proper plan and the balls to get our money back from the greedy guys.

metellaestinatrio · 28/07/2025 09:15

ForBreezySloth · 27/07/2025 22:06

I think the level of anger in your response actually highlights the wider point I was making. No one is denying that high earners contribute a lot in raw numbers but fairness in taxation isn’t just about absolute figures, it’s also about how wealth is structured and who bears the brunt when times are tough.

If someone is paying £1,500/week in tax, that suggests they’re earning an incredibly high income. That puts them in a position of privilege and insulation compared to the majority of people who are facing stagnant wages, crumbling services and little ability to absorb shocks.

The question isn’t “can we squeeze more?” it’s “can we rebalance better, especially when the current system continues to hit the same groups hardest time and time again?” A fairer society isn’t about punishing success, it’s about asking more of those who can afford more when the alternative is asking too much of those who can’t.

Edited

But we don’t keep hitting the same group again and again. Lower earners are taxed less, proportionately, than lower earners in other European countries. If we want better public services everyone needs to pay more tax but lower/middle earners are more reliant on the services (and want those services to do more and more) while being unwilling to pay more tax to fund them.

As others have said, it’s all very well thinking those earning 100k plus should pay 60% tax, but in reality no-one wants to do that so higher earners adjust their behaviour by reducing hours or increasing pension contributions to bring themselves under the threshold. Reversing the removal of the personal allowance over 100k would mean a lot more people paying tax on earnings in the 100-125k bracket because the disincentive to earn more is no longer there.