Is my best friend racist?

[Newnamefortouchysubject]

Visited my best friend today for lunch and had a conversation that has left me confused, so thought I'd bring it to the MN table.
We were talking about immigration, refugees and asylum seekers.
My friend says the issue is not the colour of people's skin, but rather their culture.
She has no problem with people who wish to settle here when they embrace the UK culture.
Her attitude is that multicultural societies are almost impossible to implement to everyones satisfaction because different cultures have such widely opposing beliefs and values and she believes it is unrealistic to expect to integrate many different cultures and values without considerable conflict between the different cultures.
Furthermore, she believes it is so difficult to integrate different cultures that people of the same ethnicity will inevitably gravitate towards each other and form their own social groups to the exclusion of other ethnic groups, so the whole idea of integration is pointless anyway.
We just end up with lots of different groups of people isolating themselves from other groups who don't share their ethnicity.
She is firmly of the belief that tensions that people describe as racially motivated actually stem from cultural differences, that she knows no one who has any issue with people of different races when they adopt the culture of the country they choose to migrate to, and that the tension is created by ethnic differences and their cultural differences.

I still say this is racism because racism also includes discriminating against people based on their ethnicity. She called me naive if I believe a truly multicultural society is possible when 'you wouldn't even tolerate a friend who has the same ethnicity as you but doesn't share your values so how do you expect to embrace someone's complete different way of life'.
I explained that the way other people choose to live their lives doesn't affect me. She called me naive again at this point and said when people don't have the same values, when they live according to different social rules, it affects people living in their vicinity who don't live like that.

Im not sure whether to raise the subject with her again, or let it lie because she seemed quite adamant and I'm not sure I could make her see this is still racist.

Now I'm wondering if I don't understand what racism is. Maybe I am naive.

He died in 2011, and even after his death people were refusing to believe what he'd done. Because he was a national treasure and did so much for charity. Best of British, wasn't he.

So British culture is not a thing then. Glad you agree with me.

Do you think it's more likely that Britain, uniquely on the globe, somehow has now culture, or that you're doing the equivalent of not being able to hear your own accent?

I'm an an immigrant and grew up loving British films and tv. Monty Python, Fawlty Towers, Blackadder, Ab Fab, even the daft Carry On films. It was so distinct from the American stuff.

One very distict thing about British culture is how many of you profess absolute loathing for your own country, and think it's done the worst things ever.

I wonder if that's some sort of exceptionalism that's been turned on it's head?

Given the rates VAWG, child sexual abuse, public disorder, and drug/alcohol misuse among many white British people, I’m not entirely convinced it’s a culture we should be attempting to force others to embrace tbh.

Also, you do know that Saudi and the UAE literally have whole zones where Western norms are prioritised over their own cultural values to accommodate expats and tourists, right??

Can only imagine the absolute meltdown from the right if someone proposed building something similar for Muslims or other immigrants here.

Fawlty Towers with the stereotype dumb Irishman and equally dumb Spanish waiter which was deliberate to emphasise the petty bigotry of the small minded English man. Don't get me wrong Flowery Twats and you'll have to sew them back on first are phrases I will take to my grave.

Hated Love thy Neighbour, Jimmy feckin Saville and The Black and White Minstrel show.

I feel you think you're coming across as clever, or funny (?!), but you're really not making much sense. Who mentioned bikinis on aeroplanes?! You can't seriously not understand the notion of culture? I assume you've not travelled much, which is of course not your fault. But until you can get abroad, maybe try googling - or a dictionary. Culture is a very standard concept and central to much academic study, from anthropology to sociology to philosophy. Have you really never encountered the concept before?! Surprised if you even made it to GCSE without learning about culture, tbh.

Do you really not notice any difference at all between Afghanistanis and Austrians? Between remote, uncontacted Brazilian tribes and a regular, Brazilian middle-class lawyer? Between the Eritreans and the English? There's nothing at all in how they live day to day that would distinguish them to you?! Either you're shockingly observant or you're... There are plenty of online resources, probably best to try and educate yourself before coming onto a grownups' forum where people may not have time for childish ignorance. Sorry to be rude, but this is a very serious topic and I'm not sure your protestations of naivety are particularly helpful. If you have something sensible to say it's probably best to just say it. If you genuinely don't understand the concept, GIYF.

I'm very happy with my Irish heritage and Welsh/Scottish connections. I have English born children, nephews, nieces and cousins. That's British.

Where would you lot like the Muslims to go to? They have lived peacefully among you for decades but now you see them as a threat. They can't go to Palestine and they can't go to Syria or Libya

I've travelled all over Europe @bestchooseanother. You haven't obviously. Plus I'm fluent in three languages.

Again, your post makes no sense :(

I've travelled extremely widely, which has reiterated the importance of culture. Ethiopians are very different to Egyptians, who are very different to Eritreans, who are very different to Ecuadorians (all of whom I've visited). I loved Azerbaijan, but it definitely was distinct from Australia, and both were certainly not Albania. If you really have managed to travel all the way across even just the one single continent (!), you surely must have noticed a difference in locations? Just going from SE England to E England is culturally distinct, so unless you're only staying in resorts focussed entirely on your own culture, you would have seen a difference. If you really, genuinely, have managed to get all the way from Portugal to Poland, and from Iceland to Ireland to Ikaria, and not noticed any kind of difference in behaviour, customs, food etc, I suggest either working on mindfulness or expanding your perspective. I certainly ate very different food in France to Finland! Didn't you? Was Sweden really the same as Spain to you? Maybe all just white people...

The Muslim community has lived here for centuries as have people from the continent of Africa. Plus those from the continents of Europe, the America's and Asia.

What is your problem? I've travelled via train, boat, car and plane throughout Europe. Of course there's a difference in each country, notwithstanding the language barrier, though being Northern Irish helped when struggling say to communicate in the Netherlands. I love Sicilian food for it's diversity of flavours. Spain is beautiful but there's a huge difference between North and South, never mind Catalonia.

Would you like me to expand on Nordic countries where the welcome was great? I travel. Have done extensively throughout the Atlantic Islands of Britain and Ireland.

You have literally said in a previous comment: "I have no direct experience of different ethnicities, except what I hear from other people". So you have no reason or evidence to think yout friend is wrong other than virtue signalling.

I went to Istanbul recently and its disrespectful there to visit certain places and show knees or shoulders. I followed their rules and standards as I was in their culture.

This is the view of the Taliban. This is most definitely not the view of all Afghani men. But the issue many people have is being able to separate the view of a country’s leaders from its citizens. I know some families from Afghanistan. The reason they are in the UK and US is because they don’t want to live under Taliban rule, they want their daughters to have an education!

Nope. There have been muslims in Britain for centuries, that is very much not the same thing as "The Muslim community has lived here for centuries". And not that many centuries, the first muslims were recorded in the 18th century, and they didn't form any sort of 'community', they married local women. People from the African continent have certainly been here for many, many centuries - definitely since Roman times. But almost all Africans back then were certainly north African, i.e. Berber (this is of course pre-Arab imperialist settlers). There is a possibility that there was a sub-Saharan black soldier on Hadrian's Wall in Roman times as it is recorded that the African emperor Severus was so terrified by the sight of him, he demanded he be removed as he was certainly bad luck (because of his dark skin). Of course, there may well have been others who weren't noticed by emperors, but it certainly suggests that what we would call 'black people' were not a usual sight.

Not to deny that there most definitely have been African immigrants to Britain over the centuries, including sub-Saharan. But until the 19th century, most were sur-Saharan simply because a) the Sahara really is quite the obstacle and b) though we don't learn about it, the Africans actually did have their own shit going on and weren't just focussed on moving to Britain. And pre- and post- the 19th century, most, if not (probably) all, integrated entirely into the native population. So, very many 'white British' people have black, or non-white ancestors, even though they are entirely British, culturally and physically. The (absurd - and very, very racist) concept of segregating people according to their skin colour, where they're not expected to integrate and instead should adhere to whatever 'culture' is associated with their melanin (?!) is very much a mid-20th Century invention. I personally don't think we're the richer for it, I think it was better when we really didn't care where someone came from, when all that mattered was where they chose to call home.

Uh huh.. and the differences you experienced... were they - by chance - cultural?!

I don't want to be mean as I do know not everybody has the opportunity to travel widely, but the fact you have thoroughly dismissed the very notion of culture when you acknowledge to have no understanding of it is slightly ridiculous. Try travelling outside Europe, maybe to the countries most immigrants come from, and watch the people. Specifically the male people. Or just go to an immigrant-heavy area of the UK! And then wonder whether you want them living next door, with full access to you, your female relatives, and your children. Like I say, I really have travelled widely, and there are many people I've met across all the world who I respect, but I am thankful do not live in my country. Not because they're bad people, but because their culture is not compatible with my (our, British) way of life.

jim’ll fix it ended on our TVs in 1994? When he died is irrelevant in the context of the quote, which was suggesting people sit down and watch Jim’ll fix it. And after his death pretty much everyone acknowledged what he’d done. The evidence was there for all to see. I never saw anyone deny what he’d done. Problem being it only came to light after his death.

But they haven’t have they? The threat of terrorism on our streets is something we have had to face for a number of years. There would be many more attacks if our police and security services didn’t intercept them. And that a lot of the boat people come here from countries like Syria and Afghanistan, the future’s not looking good for us…..

Fawlty Towers with the stereotype dumb Irishman and equally dumb Spanish waiter which was deliberate to emphasise the petty bigotry of the small minded English man. Don't get me wrong Flowery Twats and you'll have to sew them back on first are phrases I will take to my grave

But the thing about Fawlty Towers is it poked fun at everyone. Even Basil Fawlty was depicted as someone who lacked self awareness and wasn’t the brightest. Lots of characters on there covering all racial basis’s who weren’t painted in a good light. But I guess some people will pick and choose the bits that meet their narrative….

Your friend is right and I agree with her. It's not racism, it's a fact.

I find the irony stunning that you think that British people adapt to the norms of the places they go.

Right on cue - blaming underfunded, overstretched public services on immigrants instead of decades of political neglect and budget cuts. The NHS isn’t struggling because a nurse had an accent. It’s struggling because it’s been gutted by the very people some of you keep voting for. But sure, let’s scapegoat the staff who are literally holding it together. Very original.

Funny how you claim ‘no one is happy’ and yet millions of people, of all backgrounds, are living, working, thriving, and building families in this very society you say is on the verge of implosion. The ‘discontent’ you mention? That’s not proof multiculturalism is failing - it’s proof that politicians and media have been dining out on fear and division for years. And here’s a thought: maybe if people stopped demanding immigrants perform gratitude while putting up with hostility, there’d be a lot more harmony to go around. Just because you don’t want to hear success stories doesn’t mean they’re not happening all around you.

Hear, hear.

Expats and tourist are key words. They never give them permanent residency or ciridhip, so they never cause demographic or cultural change that impacts the native population. They are all there temporarily for work. They have no entitlement to Saudi Arabia’s generous handouts, education or healthcare. They must have comprehensive health insurance and they must leave when required to.