I am not sure I agree that Teachers have absolutely exhausting jobs - much more so than most jobs - as said by man on r4 this morning

[RevolutionHere]

i am not sure what my dh, former welder would make of this statement

this is an argument regarding long summer holidays,

sounds about right

But the title of your post does welcome defensive comments from teachers; real frustration from people who do the job. Surely you anticipated this?

Unless you are a teacher, saying “I am not sure I agree that teachers have absolutely exhausting jobs - much more so than most jobs” means you are suggesting that teachers who do say their job is absolutely exhausting are lying or perhaps exaggerating the challenges of the role. I think teachers should be able to say they do a really hard job without everyone taking it personally and saying ‘what about my job’. It’s like if someone was sick - you wouldn’t immediately try to argue you were more sick.

I’m sure we can all agree that are lots of challenging jobs out there for many different reasons. Even an ‘easy’ job can become impossible if you have difficult colleagues or clients. Teachers sound like they are always saying it because they are often just defending themselves, especially at the moment when a lot of people are suggesting that they should provide childcare during the holidays, an idea that totally misses what teachers actually do for a job. If holidays are made shorter, it should be because child development theory suggests that’s best. Not because people are jealous of one of the few perks of the job (at the moment - teaching can have a million perks but in the UK it is a challenge). Yes, you haven’t said this directly but you’ve created another forum for people to hide behind their keyboards and belittle a lot of hard working people.

I don’t think teachers should get fewer holidays. I do however think other professional roles should take mental health/burn out rates more seriously and give more annual leave etc to account for that. It shouldn’t be a race to the bottom.

I’ve worked as a solicitor in a small firm with statutory annual leave (and a lower rate of pay than my teacher friends). That is not funny.

Again - why don't you become a teacher if it's that great? In fact, why doesn't everybody? Why are we in a recruitment and retention crisis if it's as awesome a job as you seem to be depicting?

No it's not. That sounds rubbish. But again, if being a solicitor was worse than being a teacher, why didn't you become a teacher?

I tried. My corporate law experience does not apparently qualify me to teach business management 🙄 law degree will give me access to primary teaching but I didn’t want to do that.

Wtf 🙈 You're trying to claim that this thread isn't about teaching...? 🤣

Okay so you could have been a primary school teacher but decided you didn't want to? Again - why didn't you want to, if teaching is such a great job?

Considering the wide range of requirements in the different welding jobs and your argument is 'welders have it harder', not actually knowing what your DH did doesn't make for a strong argument.

Sorry but where have I said that teaching is a great job? Where have I actually said that being a lawyer is harder? You’re just jumping on the defensive. I haven’t said any of that.

No, they are entitled to it because that’s the contract. If you want it, you can become a teacher.

People don’t value our education system or the people that work in it. Hence the mess it’s in.

I cannot comprehend how people fail to see the benefit of an effective education system? Or what we need to do to achieve such a prospect?

But no, here we are having the same debate for the 50 millionth time, continuing to spectacularly ignore the debates we should be having.

Quantifying exhaustion ffs.

I totally agree - anyone who does a physically or mentally exhausting job should advocate for working conditions that limit or reduce mental health issues/burnout. People should focus on making their chosen profession work for them, not waste time bashing other professions.

@2021x teachers don’t work over the summer because that’s how the school system works - we didn’t campaign for it, it’s just the way it is. It’s a perk of the job, sure, but teachers can never enjoy remote working (unless there’s a pandemic!), breaks when they need a moment during the day, predictable days, time off when flights and hotels are cheaper etc, high salaries etc. Every job has pros and cons but the teacher retention rates suggest that the perks that everyone bangs on about in teaching aren’t enough to keep people in schools for more than 5 years.

Unless you have been a teacher, nurse or whatever, you will never understand the realities of that job, obviously. I'm guessing that most jobs are bloody exhausting in one way or another.

We all deserve better conditions and pay. Most of us are exhausted by work and life and we all deserve better.

Our children most certainly deserve a good education, and they will only get that if we retain our good teachers by improving their conditions. That should be the real concern here. Not their holidays or if their job is more stressful than others.

@BogRollBOGOF

I completely agree with everything you say.

It’s been like a slow creep in schools over the past decade, but exacerbated by Covid.

In Early Years, it seemed to be shift and dogmatic attitude of ‘let’s do things differently’ - and a great many settings I walk in to are now pretty chaotic. Often lots of adults, but no one really taking charge - particularly with behaviour.

I also see the most qualified in the school or leaders interacting far less with children because there is an over focus on policies, documents, data handling, funding concerns, or the latest new trend. Things like Tapestry are pretty mind boggling, staff are given non-contact time to complete - and I actually think that time is better spent interacting with a child.

I have a child with an EHCP, and the battles I have to fight with that are extraordinary. Off rolling/exclusion type attitude is very real in schools. I worry that the diagnosis explosion has led to schools thinking a child is ‘a problem’ rather than addressing their provision first and foremost. It shouldn’t be that way.

My shining light this year has been helping out an organisation which is still quite ‘old school’ in the way it does things. The focus isn’t on funding, or computer based tasks. It’s on the children. It is fantastic, inclusion isn’t an issue and yes - it can be exhausting - but in the best way possible. The children are thriving,

As I’ve said (repeatedly) that’s exactly what the man on the radio said which so incensed you. He said teaching was more exhausting than most jobs. Not all jobs. As someone said upthread, is the crux of this thread that you don’t understand the word ‘most’?

Well you are implying teachers are all exaggerating about being busy & tired. Then everyone starts responding with reasons why it’s tiring. I don’t think welding & teaching are in any way comparable to be honest. One is a manual job in hot working conditions & requires concentration on the task in hand & is physically demanding. The other is physically demanding at times but it’s more the pace & having to deal with a whole room full of kids who mostly would prefer to be at home or playing outside. Parents getting involved & all the other pressures. They can’t really be compared.

You are making your agenda a bit too clear.

@RevolutionHere your DH is a former welder? I think many of us don't know what the job involves, did it affect him physically?

I think it's impossible to compare roles (not saying Welders don't have high stress); teaching is suffering a retention crisis many of them leave not long after qualifying. It's horribly stressful and I assume (but may be wrong) that a welder is at least not constantly scrutinised as teachers are with Ofsted, parents, management etc.

When my DC were at school parents could be vitriolic and had no qualms about saying things on Facebook until one was threatened with libel

@RevolutionHere
This is the fourth time I’ve asked about this now - do you recognise that your premise is nonsense? That the man on the radio said the same as you claim to believe, that teaching is more exhausting than most (not all) jobs? Did you misunderstand?

I haven't said it's great. I haven't said it's awesome. Ive said it's mentally and physically demanding. I've said I couldn't do it. I have the greatest respect for the teachers who do the job, including my partner, two of my children and, before she retired, my Mum (all of whom love teaching.)

What I have said is that the holidays are really long and there are lots of them.

Why don't you stop teaching if it's so awful?

That's entirely reasonable. They are not paid for most of the 'holidays'.

No one is saying otherwise! Jesus Christ, the reading comprehension of some of these teachers.

Teachers aren't bloody nuns! It's a job, not a calling.