I am not sure I agree that Teachers have absolutely exhausting jobs - much more so than most jobs - as said by man on r4 this morning

[RevolutionHere]

i am not sure what my dh, former welder would make of this statement

this is an argument regarding long summer holidays,

yeah they do.

and the leave is part of the package.

Not necessarily. Budgets being what they are , a lot of schools hold out for NQT’s (rather than experienced teachers/at the top of the payscale) or just plug the gap with existing teachers , HLTAs , TAs, or hire a 3 in 1 teacher.

Can I ask what job you went on to do after being an HLTA? I reckon I can only last one more academic year in this role!

I don’t think they’re remunerated enough for what they have to do.

Because if you say that we should talk about our wages like ‘normal’ jobs that get paid for 11-13 week holidays then if we were paid for these holidays at our hourly rate we would be paid considerably more. We aren’t paid for our holidays yet most teachers work through some if not all of them. If we do school trips we don’t get paid overnight or if they’re during the weekend. We don’t even get the money back for food we buy on the trips. Not sure why teacher pay upsets you so much.

The practical difference would be that if you were paid for the holidays, the agreed salary would be higher.

I see what you’re saying: the pay scale is X, that is divided by 12, so that is what you get. But that pay scale is worked out based on the number of days worked + I think 5 weeks (could be wrong there) holiday pay. If all the holidays were paid, the pay scale would be worked out as number of days worked + 12 weeks holiday pay, which would be a higher number. Pay scales are statutory - academies might choose to pay more in order to recruit, but you can’t negotiate a higher salary. I know that’s the case in many professions, so I’m not trying to say it’s worse, I’m just trying to make it as clear as I can.

So what we mean when we say we’re not paid for the holidays, is that the amount we’re paid is based on 39/40 weeks a year divided by 52 weeks a year, not 52 weeks a year divided by 52 weeks a year. Which would be fine if we didn’t also end up working during the holidays.

I hope that makes sense.

There is a recruitment and retention crisis, particularly amongst new staff. There are also massive issues with funding and budgets. UPS teachers with a wealth of experience are more expensive.

An ex teacher here. I left 3 years ago at 35 after 14 years. I was contracted to work 8:30-4:30 Mon-Fri term time.
The hours went far and above that. I’d arrive at work at 7:20am, leave at 6 when I was kicked out to lock up. Take at least 2 hours work home every evening and that would increase during busy periods e.g. testing, reports etc. I then had to work at least 5-6 hours per weekend.

Yes I had lots of holidays, I always worked at least a few days over half terms etc. at the end of the year I don’t my first week after finishing up in school finishing off admin tasks and then the week before, if not two weeks before getting set up for the new year.

i now work in a customer service job online for longer hours 8-6:30 than my contracted school hours of 4:30-8:30 and only have standard holidays of 24 days and I couldn’t go back to teaching, which I love which is so sad. As at least when I log off my computer at work and go home that’s it. I have my evenings and weekends and they are more important than a few extra weeks off in the summer.

Anyone is entitled to post their thoughts online, and that is what the OP is doing.

You have no idea! Fucking hell why is this county so anti teachers now. Did your husband work 60 hour weeks and have to use his evenings and weekends

It the mental stress that gets you. With most jobs, each day is fairly predictable but with teaching you’re dealing with 90 to 120 students each day, and you don’t know how each one is going to react. There might be one child who is being SA by someone, another one might not have eaten for 24 hours. All difficult shit but then you have the work load, marking, stress etc.

Well, 'most' doesn't mean 'every', so coming up with specific examples is pointless.

I'm a nurse, my particular nursing job is exhausting, it doesn't make it any less true just because A&E nursing is probably just as much, if not more exhausting.

No they don’t.
They aren’t paid for the full 13 weeks of school holidays.

It’s not now at all. My GREAT aunt and uncle were teachers and the same conversation happened then. As for the idea that changing school holidays for childcare is some hot topic, this has been the standard July news story for at least 15 years. It’s all quite exhausting in itself 😆

I think a lot of people in manual jobs really struggle to understand mental exhaustion from some forms of work. I worked as a waitress when I was younger and then a nursery nurse, both involved me being on my feet all day and rushing about. I thought people doing sitting down jobs had it easy. I'm now a social worker and I leave work feeling absolutely exhausted from the stress, responsibility, tight deadlines etc. I struggle to switch off and think about work a lot at home and also do work at home outside of my contracted hours. I imagine it's the same for teachers. I also think not having that regular movement through the day doesn't help in keeping the mind and body energised. If I could manage the pay cut I would go back to waitressing.

It's simply not true that days are mostly predictable in most jobs.

Police
Paramedic
Nursing
Social work
Prison officer
Pobation officer
IDVA

Just a small list of emotionally draining jobs with unpredictable days where you are also expected to do your base job, paperwork etc. Teaching is not unique in this. I don't understand why teachers act like this is so unusual.

As a former teacher I don’t think it’s the most exhausting job ever. But is definitely a LOT more exhausting than many, many jobs. I was worried when I left teaching whether I would really miss the holidays, but honestly I feel like I have more holiday now because I don’t collapse in an unwell heap for my holidays or work all through them. I have no axe to grind, I’m no longer teaching and I’m very happy in my post teaching life. But I think given the massive recruitment (and worse retention crisis) pretending it’s an easy job is not a viable opinion really. If it was that easy, more of the former teachers would still be doing it!

True.
Many schools can’t afford experienced teachers because they cost much more than employing an ECT fresh out of their teaching degree.

I agree it is one of the toughest jobs, but so is mine.

I work 24/7 for minimal pay - around £340 a month.

I start my shift at 6am and finish around 10pm, but I'm on call every night.

If I am unwell I have to keep working.

I have to work overtime during school holidays without a break.

My job involves dealing with a teenager having a toddler style tantrum, changing a teenager's nappy, trying to communicate with a non verbal teenager, being frequently hit and shoved by a teenager.

Risk assessments need to be carried out (by me) for every outing.

I get no support and feel exhausted, tearful and drained.

I'm an unpaid carer to my son who has complex needs.

The practical difference would be that if you were paid for the holidays, the agreed salary would be higher.

I mean, yes, if you were paid the same rate for your 12 weeks of holiday as for your time in school, then you’d get more money.

But, as far as I know, this has never been the case, so teachers have always entered their contract agreements knowing they earn £XX,000 for a year’s work, during which they’ll get long holidays.

Teachers are professionals. Professionals aren’t paid by the hour.

The thing that would really put me off teaching isn’t the pay or the hours (which don’t seem so bad compared to many other jobs) … it’s the prospect of having to deal with badly behaved children all day long. They are everywhere, these indulged / badly behaved / never-disciplined little sods… I have two kids and am constantly amazed at how many of my fellow parents are raising monsters with “gentle parenting”. Dealing with the behavioural upshots of this must be horrific.

It’s just hyperbole. You know they don’t really mean it as they don’t leave teaching to become a dairy farmer, coal miner, nurse doing 50% nights etc.

Everyone engages in hyperbole about their job from time to time. It’s not personal.

When I first started teaching I divided my salary by the amount of hours I was doing and it worked out 27p less than minimum wage.

It's different now I'm very experienced and on UPS but when I look back to those early years I don't know why I didn't have the sense to get out then.

@GonnaeNoDaeThatJustGonnaeNo WTF? How many more times does this need to be explained?!

Teachers get paid for 39 weeks of the year, plus the 4 weeks statutory annual leave. 11 weeks of the year are UNPAID.

Hilarious to see it described as “part of the package”

I’m not even sure what you mean? Your posts are poorly written so cannot make sense of them.