To report benefit fraud?

[DylanKeogh]

I work for a charity who support a vulnerable subsect of people. I've been asked to support a person who cares for a vulnerable individual to complete PIP review paperwork. The PIP review was for HIM not the vulnerable person.

I have completed the review form filling in details that he asked me to. Handily for him, he had all his PIP and DLA applications dating back to 1997 (that I could see, maybe earlier).

I had to paraphrase the 2016 application so his disabilities and care needs looked consistent. The version of events given in 2016 did not match the person our charity has been supporting for a while now. For example, 'cannot leave the house without his son for support.' He doesn't speak to his son. His kids haven't spoken to him for years he frequently claims. 'Cannot walk more than 10m without stopping and not at all without a stick.' We've never seen a stick and our building he visits weekly is more than 10m away from his car, and of course more than 10m in length. There was not a stick on show in the house, nor one by the front door. He showed me photos of a day out last weekend that "was a huge place to walk around." No stick in the photos!

I did say at the time that I was just going to have to copy the previous application or it will look like he's been miraculously cured. He agreed to it. I felt dreadful at the time as I'm thinking he is bare faced lying. I said to my Dad that I've lied terribly. He said I hadn't lied as they weren't my words, nor was it my signature.

Do I forget about it? Everybody is entitled to do what they want, not my place to judge. I did the job I'm paid to do and if he wants to commit benefit fraud, that's on him?

Or do I have a moral obligation to report people who are dishonestly depriving the state and tax payers? I support so many people who genuinely have never and don't believe they should claim benefits. They really do struggle.

YABU - Keep your sticky beak out

YANBU - Report away, it looks like he's been taking money for almost 30yrs!

Report, report, report! He is literally stealing money from others who actually need it.

The answer is always report.

Many people who genuinely have a disability would tell you that you have a duty to report the truth as you have seen it.
My DC2 had a severe visual impairment (and is registered blind, but has useful vision) and has had to fight the scepticism that these people generate.
I would report the truth in a heartbeat. It makes me sick to my stomach to hear of people falsely claiming disability benefits and therefore stigmatising those who really need the help.

I'm not going to say much as will be pounced on as I have been on previous threads, but just wanted to say I do a similar job to you and am very shocked by a lot of what I see . It makes me feel very uncomfortable and causes me massive dilemmas, but at the end of the day that person is signing the form to say the information is correct and they do have to supply medical evidence before the benefit is awarded so to have been awarded that benefit for 30 years, they must have supplied medical evidence unless what they have told medical professionals is also untrue ?? If the DWP have not checked medical evidence properly then they are at fault.
I am currently supporting an elderly man who has been in receipt of higher rate DLA mobility for many years with a motorbility car yet all his recent GP letters say he can walk almost a mile. Unbelievable ! If he has improved, he clearly hasn't let them know.

Sorry that last bit should say hospital letters..

Could it be that your client's condition has improved and he has just not reported this change? Despite all disability award letters telling people they must report changes it does seem to be something that people seem to forget ! Just thinking he may have had more problems originally ?

What does your workplace say? Do they acknowledge that sometimes some people might be swinging the lead or are they an all believing kind of place. Curious to know what their guidance is.

In your shoes I think I would now have to bloody swallow it and say what's done is done, learn from it. In future if someone is lying you need to say I am not prepared to report this other than how I see it or you need to get someone else to do your forms.

If all the fraudulent claims were stopped the country could be in a better place for those that need it.

I'm going to against the grain here.

I'm not saying he is the same as me, but I think if you saw me you might think I am committing benefit fraud too.

I assure you I am not.

Some horrendous medical conditions are incurable and degenerative, but also variable. Mine is the sort that prevents me living a normal life but you couldn't tell by looking at me. Part of that is because when I cannot mobilise, I don't even try. So the times you see that I can, they are the short bursts I am able to.

It is not safe for me to because I am at risk of falls and it always makes me ill after. I think its what they call ‘payback’. If you didn't see me fall you wouldn't think that I do. It is not consistent because more days I'm incapable than capable. It is not reliable because it stops me making plans - I never know if I am capable of walking, talking, or seeing straight. I never know if I can cook or whether I'm just going to go hungry or try to get a takeaway meal prepared for me. Or just eat junk because it's an easy packet to open when you can barely stand. Pip standard are that it has to be safe, consistent and reliable.

I need help that I don't get, so I live without it. but I still need it and it contributes to my ill days.

But unless you saw my scan results and followed me around all the time, you would not know.

I would be devastated if people reported me. Its hard enough to get pip in the first place, so when you do, the idea someone could try and say you're cheating... Must be the ultimate low.

He might be like me. Or he might be cheating, but I bet you filled out my for a you'd be asking if you should report me.

This. many conditions are variable and people will have medical evidence to say this. As part of the PIP assessment the assessor considers how a person is affected on the majority of days.

What does your manager say?

Are you a welfare rights officer? If so, NAWRA may have information on what to do, or the forum or Rightsnet may be more suitable if you wish a response from others in the same line of work

Yes the fluctuating conditions are tricky, like the neurodegenerative ones and muscular dystrophy/myopathies.

This is why PIP and all of these benefits need to be cut back. Fraud and abuse is rife. Most people with eyes can see others scamming the taxpayer in plain sight. The sooner the system is cut back to size and the gravy train brought under control, the better.

Yet you’ll see people protesting here that there is no way that anyone can be scaling the system. You will give them an example that is clear as day, but they’ll insist that the genuine must be claimants.

Most people who protest so much must be stealing themselves, hence the attempt to play down other peoples’ fraud so much.

Surely to goodness you’re not expected to be compliant in this?! Whoever you work for; a charity, public sector, whoever should be helping you report this… what kind of society have we become when it’s acceptable to go along with blatant immoral if not criminal behaviour.
Escalate it to your managers and make some noises about what’s right and wrong

I’m amazed your employer doesn’t require you to ensure their organisation isn’t facilitating fraud. You don’t have to be an assessor to say that, in good conscience, you can’t write statements that are patently false. Your employer should also provide you with a reporting contact line.

How's he getting PIP without evidence?

I work for a Welfare Rights organisation and I would not have agreed to complete a PIP review form for someone who is not a client or to complete the form with information that I knew or strongly doubted was untrue . People's conditions change over time and it may be that this person has improved and they need to be honest about this. Alternatively it may be that this person has a fluctuating but this needs to be discussed when filling in the form.

I don't understand your post.

A carer does not apply for PIP for themselves.

They fill it on behalf of the person they care for.

Are you sure this is real? because I am doubting your story.

Especially the fact that you have been into that person's house (why?) and conveniently seen his holiday pictures.

Also if he has previous versions of his PIP I don't see why he would need the support of anyone to fill in a new form. He could do it himself by simply copying the same details....

Also to succeed PIP applications requires medical evidence to back up the claim made to be provided. They do contact the claimant's healthcare team to verify the claim and an assessment is made face to face or over the phone by an independent person. So whatever someone writes on a form does not mean the claim will be accepted.

PIP is not easy to get, despite what the right wing media would like us to believe.

Someone who is a carer ( providing 35 hours of care for someone else ) can also apply for PIP for themselves. It is a very common scenario. Disabled couples where both are disabled claim to care for each other, older people care for adult disabled children whilst claiming PIP themselves. It is rarely questioned. the only time I have seen it questioned was by a tribunal panel.

I suspect its yet another thread to rile people up about disability benefits
There will be loads of posts from posters claiming their next door neighbours best friends cousin gets PIP for no reason.

@Miley23

You don't get PIP simply for being a carer of someone with a disability.

You have to have your own disabilities/long term health conditions to receive it.

@x2boys

I agree. That's why I am getting suspicious of all these threads lately about so called PIP fraud or lately thread about how reasonable adjustments in the workplace should not be put in place because they affect non disabled staff negatively.

Basically the ableism and the misinformation is really starting to bother me.

Yes but the Op apparently works for the charity that support vulnerable people, why is she helping the carer fill in his form rather than the vulnerable adult ?

Of course. I was not implying that people did ! Obviously they need to have disabilities themselves which is what seems to be the case in op's scenario?

Thanks for all the posts. I will update soon. I'm really grateful for all the perspectives.

Quickly:
It's back pain. No degenerative condition as such.

Yes, he is a carer. Our charity provide home visits as how are carers supposed to leave the house if they have caring responsibilities?

I genuinely have no idea how/why the DWP have not been more thorough in their checks. There were no consultant letters, no evidence of secondary care, no physio, no pain clinic, nothing. Industrial strength painkillers from the GP - that was all. Hence my dilemma.

So you thought you would ask mumsnet rather thsn discussing your concerns with your manager 🤔
Not very professional is it ?

Every charity I have worked for has also allowed advisors to help people in the same household as well as original client. So for example in my current role I might help someone to claim Attendance Allowance then help their relative to claim carers allowance if they were struggling to do it themselves. As long as GDPR rules are followed and the relative has signed consent and records are kept then it is not considered a problem. I honestly don't think what op has done is unusual.