To report benefit fraud?

[DylanKeogh]

I work for a charity who support a vulnerable subsect of people. I've been asked to support a person who cares for a vulnerable individual to complete PIP review paperwork. The PIP review was for HIM not the vulnerable person.

I have completed the review form filling in details that he asked me to. Handily for him, he had all his PIP and DLA applications dating back to 1997 (that I could see, maybe earlier).

I had to paraphrase the 2016 application so his disabilities and care needs looked consistent. The version of events given in 2016 did not match the person our charity has been supporting for a while now. For example, 'cannot leave the house without his son for support.' He doesn't speak to his son. His kids haven't spoken to him for years he frequently claims. 'Cannot walk more than 10m without stopping and not at all without a stick.' We've never seen a stick and our building he visits weekly is more than 10m away from his car, and of course more than 10m in length. There was not a stick on show in the house, nor one by the front door. He showed me photos of a day out last weekend that "was a huge place to walk around." No stick in the photos!

I did say at the time that I was just going to have to copy the previous application or it will look like he's been miraculously cured. He agreed to it. I felt dreadful at the time as I'm thinking he is bare faced lying. I said to my Dad that I've lied terribly. He said I hadn't lied as they weren't my words, nor was it my signature.

Do I forget about it? Everybody is entitled to do what they want, not my place to judge. I did the job I'm paid to do and if he wants to commit benefit fraud, that's on him?

Or do I have a moral obligation to report people who are dishonestly depriving the state and tax payers? I support so many people who genuinely have never and don't believe they should claim benefits. They really do struggle.

YABU - Keep your sticky beak out

YANBU - Report away, it looks like he's been taking money for almost 30yrs!

For asking advice on a public forum rather than follow protocol,?
Yes I suspect so.

Signs what off? You've never seen a pip form have you. Its nothing to do with a gp they dont sign the form

I had assumed they meant they’d provided a medical note as evidence. Either way it’s a lie

I did say at the time that I was just going to have to copy the previous application or it will look like he's been miraculously cured

So you covered it up? By lying on the form you allowed him to claim fraudulently. You should have filled the form in correctly and if it made him look like he’d had a miraculous recovery then surely someone would look into that.

You’ve committed fraud by lying too.

It's too late now. You shouldn't be helping fraudsters to fill in forms.

People are told to report everything as if it was their worst day, so I assume there is a bit of leeway there. Because you have filled out the form and it seems like you didn't question it at the time, I would feel guilty at then going on to report him.

Another one to say that variable conditions are real. I have an autoimmune arthritis. My injections are every two weeks. On day 2-4 I’m actually ok, I can walk arrive an average Lidl and even put my shopping away. Day 5-14 though I’m far from great, rely heavily on a stick or just taking it easy. If I am on steroids, I might get two weeks of being almost normal. But if I get sick ( very common, every 4-6 weeks) then I have to miss an injection and often am house or bed bound for that time. But Pele, close friends, support people, only tend to see me at my very best as I totally and utterly try to hide when in bad as NOBODY likes to hear “actually no in not ok” on a regular basis. It reduces intimacy with friends and as a result my world is very small with just two good friends and my 2 sisters left. They know the truth of how my illnesses affect me, but very few other people see the reality of me needing electric veg peelers, help cleaning myself, shower stools, and popping pills like smarties just to get through the tough times. My drs know, and they offer me the paper work trail I need to access sort and it’s backed up with X-rays, blood results etc. but if my next door neighbour knew I was on benefits she would probably report me as she’s sees me pottering in my greenhouse, watering plants and SHOCK HORROR walking to the shop 25m away over a week to get milk.

I’m not saying don’t report, but I had to show a huge amount of stuff from drs etc and the dwp can and do access medical records and contact support workers etc.

I did say at the time that I was just going to have to copy the previous application or it will look like he's been miraculously cured.
But this isnt even how you fill out a renewal iv just done mine and the form is completely different to the original one you do and the dwp are only interested in any changes since the last form. So not only did you apparently lie on the form you also didn't read it. You sound so professional.

As well as asking for advice on mumsnet,....

You need to report it. These assessments are relying on people being truthful & many of them aren’t. It’s much easier for people to exaggerate now, when most assessments are by phone.

The assessment part is such a small part of the process the thing that is most needed is strong medical evidence mainly from secondary care.

That's what I was just thinking. If op has chosen to fraudulently put down info on a form that is a massive problem. Likely a sackable offence at minimum.

The level of detail needed for these sorts of forms is very high. An adviser would need to ask questions, and surely if op had seen evidence to the contrary that would be something needing checked (to make sure the correct info was on the form e.g. if a condition fluctuates etc, nit necessarily to stop the application).

I think you should have started from scratch rather than copy or at least question things you believed to not be correct. You've made yourself morally complicit despite him signing the form.
However, he won't be refused just on your say so, all that might happen is that he will be investigated.

Tbh i think you should have asked him to tell you what to include not suggesting duplication of a prior years

If people are being told this they are being advised incorrectly. PIP is based on the majority of days. Unless all days are the same people are usually encouraged to explain how many days they struggle with an activity for example "4 days out of 7 I struggle to prepare food because....."

That’s correct. No idea where this “describe your worst day” thing comes from.

Majority of days is what’s important, like you say. Along with robust evidence, proof of treatment, any scan/X-ray reports etc.

The government is losing money hand over fist because of benefit fraud. And just look how those who genuinely need the money have been affected by the threat of losing money they depend on

report immediately

"I did say at the time that I was just going to have to copy the previous application or it will look like he's been miraculously cured."

It sounds like the fraud was your idea OP! Probably best speaking to your manager and being honest because this could come back to bite you, especially if you decide to report him.

I work in a similar role, for me, I would consider the reason for the exaggeration. Is he just talking about what happens on his worst days? That is how the form should be completed.

Is he unable to work? Benefits without the PIP element are not sufficient for living on, nor is carers allowance and you say he is a carer. If PIP prevents a carer of a vulnerable person being in poverty I'd say it is morally wrong for you to report him and push him in to poverty. You also risk causing a huge amount of stress to the claimant and the cared for person. If this cared for person is completely dependent on him and he ends up in a position where he can't care for her effectively the cost to the tax payer is going to be much greater than his PIP payments. It can be a few grand a week for adult social care to fund a person's care.

I think you should have told the man you can't write some things because they are not true.

You need to talk to your manager urgently. You have already doubtless committed a serious breech of your organisations policy in knowingly assisting a client to commit benefit fraud, and are now contemplating breeching client confidentiality, which if you do so off your own bat without following procedure, is serious misconduct. This client and his morality are the least of your worries. I urge you, report yourself to your manager, and request basic training for your role, because bluntly, you are a liability to your organisation at present.

For future reference, should you need it, if its clear a client is lying to claim benefits, you do not go ahead and fill in the form with the lies. It might be his signature, but its you who wrote it, and it wouldn't be the first time a client claimed that "the charity woman put that, I just signed". You end the interview and seek the guidance of your supervisor.

A form should not be completed just on someone's worst day. It is fine to describe a worst day but it needs to be explained how many days are worst days.

I’m in a health group on facebook and people opening admit to writing it up as their worst day. My worse day with my condition was in hospital with a life threatening attack unable to move with pain. If I ever filled in a PIP form to reflect those terrible days when they are not that often and other days I was going out and about and on holiday, it would be fraud.

But everyone just sees it as the way they need to fill it out to qualify and as they do have a genuine quite serious health issue they consider it ok to do this. Things like needing someone to accompany them when leaving the house, unable to walk far, needing someone to administer meds or assist them with washing, they openly admit they do not need unless they were at hospital level pain, which might be once or twice a year at best. Posters on here refuse to believe so many are exaggerating their conditions to qualify, but there are many that are.

You are not supposed to fill it out based on the worse day, not unless that’s a reflection of most days. That in itself is fraud.

It's shocking when people give this advice to fill it in based on your worst day. A worst day could be once a year or once a month and PIP is based on the majority of days. However, PIP assessors do seem to be pretty good at clarifying this and would need medical evidence that the claimant was affected on the majority of days. I have supported a lot of people at PIP assessments and the assessors have always been very thorough with this so hopefully people are not being awarded wrongly.
The 'advice' given on some of those facebook sites is a real eye opener tbh.