Why can't people respect the rules around toilets!?!?

[coffeeandmycats]

I’m really angry and just need to get this off my chest. Me and my sister run a small shop, just the two of us and a couple of customer toilets, one for biological women, one for men, signs on the door. Never had any trouble. Until today.
A regular female customer comes up looking pretty upset, says there’s a man in the women’s loo. I go in to check. At first it sort of looked okay, hair, maybe a trans woman? But then I heard a deep voice, saw stubble and a broad build, a wig that looked like a last-minute costume. It was clearly a bloke who didn’t pass. Not even close.
I said politely, this is the women’s loo, please leave. He stared at me and said flat out, “I was born female.” Not I identify as a woman, he literally claimed he was biologically female. I asked him to go and he refused.
So I rang 101, didn’t want drama and wasn’t sure what rights we had as shop owners. The police said we can’t challenge how someone describes themselves. If he says he was born female, that’s it. We’re not allowed to question it based on how he looks. And since no laws were broken, they won’t come unless he’s being abusive or refusing to follow reasonable requests after shouting multiple times.
They also confirmed that the new Supreme Court judgment about women-only spaces is civil law, not criminal. That means even though legally women are defined by birth, you still can’t challenge someone in the moment just because they say they’re female.
I looked into it after, and yep, the Supreme Court (in For Women Scotland v Scottish Ministers) ruled that “woman” in the Equality Act 2010 means biologically female. But that applies to protecting women-only spaces under civil law. It doesn’t let us stop someone on the spot from walking into the wrong loo. The police still can’t act if someone says they’re female, even if it’s clearly false.
This bloke walked into the women’s loo, lied about being born female, made women uncomfortable, and we’ve got no legal leg to stand on to stop him. Women customers left feeling unsafe.
So what exactly are we supposed to do? Sit back and let it happen because the law only kicks in later on? Are we just meant to trust someone who’s lying about their sex to decide what sexed spaces they can use?
It feels like women’s rights are just words, no power in real life. Anyone else run into this mess in their business? I'm nearly losing my mind over how absurd this is.

No worries. I must switch this thread off. I’ve dropped so many stitches following it that I’m having to unpick my work 😁

because we can see what sex they are anyway.

I mean you keep insisting this. I understand it’s your belief, but it is empirically false.
if it were true there would have been no need for the court to clarify that trans women can be protected from sex based discrimination as women where they are perceived to be women.
You also clearly have very little insight into violence against trans women 🤷🏼‍♀️

Hypothetically they can, yes.

In reality, has it ever actually happened?

Yes

Really? Can you link us to a court case where a trans woman successfully claimed sex discrimination on the grounds that they were perceived to be a woman?

I meant it happens all the time that trans women are perceived to be women and suffer sexism as a result

You’re just getting borderline offensive now.

williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/ncvs-trans-press-release/

the fact the law has only just been clarified and the fact that huge organisations and websites say different things surely mean the government need to step in and say something?......

You have a small cafe with male and female toilets, each with multiple cubicles?

I'm not sure you thought this story through...

How odd.

I don't consider nonsense from America to be a legitimate source.

It was brilliantly thought through in other ways ;)

No, they are correctly perceived to be trans and are treated differently as a result.

I can't say they experience transphobia, because although some of them undoubtedly do, the word has been stripped of all meaning now due to overuse.

“Nonsense from america”? Ok..: 😆

Yes a cat cafe. The toilets came with the building we rent. We also have a disabled loo

it’s quite something to do boldly insist that you have direct knowledge of the total sum of all people’s perceptions.

You quoted a single issue "research" institute which focuses exclusively on LGBT issues and not women's issues, which doesn't show its working, which relies on datasets from 7-8 years ago (why only two years and why nothing more recent?), which doesn't appear to control for other variables, which refers to "victimization" (sic) without explaining what that means, and which doesn't look at any UK based data at all.

Is there a particular reason why you didn't link a better source?

It's quite something to insist that trans women definitely experience sex based discrimination due to being perceived as women and state that this is why the Supreme Court specifically referred to this, and then refuse to link to a single example of where this has actually happened.

No, it was just something I happened across. I’m glad you’ve at least engaged with it and come up with a more convincing justification to dismiss it than “it’s American” 😆

what's the point of the SC saying only biological women in women's toilets when it's not a crime and no one can enforce it day to die

day to day* apologies

Here’s the peer review publication https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33600251/ in a high ranked journal which of course sets out the methods and definition of “victimisation”.

You’re asking specifically for an example of a court case where a trans person successfully won a legal claim based on this. That’s a ridiculous bar to prove whether something happens or exists 😂

I have to say that my first thought was did you say "can you prove that?". However, that may not have been wise 😀.

My second thought was what others have suggested, put locks on the toilet doors and hand out the appropriate key / code to people on request.

But, question for you - do you legally have to provide single sex toilets? Could you just make both sets of toilets unisex? I notice a lot of pubs have gone this route in recent years and the sky hasn't fallen in.