Do you think there’s 2 tier policing in the uk?

[Watermelonice]

And 2 tier sentencing?

And if so who is driving this?

And for what end goal?

Yes absolutely, although this is a whole different issue and I’m not sure if it’s an example of 2 tier, rather more like no tier.

Instead of admitting the numbers of people committing these very serious crimes are enormous, and addressing how to increase resources to police and punish this to prevent the likelihood of further escalation, instead the government de escalate it. A bit like shoplifting currently.

I don’t disagree with this and have heard that black girls are more likely to be strip searched, which if true is disgraceful and I cannot see and valid reason for this.

That wasn't the question.

I watched the video of his arrest. I don't think he should have been arrested, really, even thiugh tecwsd being provocative.

However, he lost my sympathy somewhat when he said police "prefer" Muslims to Chrstians.

Is that the two tier policing you mean?

Eta: you make it sound like he was grabbed by 11 police. He wasn't. There were a few policemen in the vicinity as well as the two or three actually arresting him.

Yes I do.
Kate and Jerry McCann for example. If they had been working class they would be in prison now.

For what?

@Watermelonice
Yes because sentences are always different based on circumstances etc.g first crime, or repeated offences, done to a vulnerable person; children, multiple offences of assult, cricumstances, age etc. Like it's pretty clear that judges work off guidelines and also we have a very independent and retrial judiciary - they're selected based on their ability as lawyers and experience by an independent body. Unlike other countries where they have to be partisan. Just because you see some images of a protest (could be faked or only showing some of what happened, with little to no context) means nothing in how the police decide to arrest and charge people.

Furthermore, the reports (Lammy Review in 2017 and Louise Casey's Review in 2023) found that police forces are racist and misogynistic. Offical stats are not social facts the way the are taken and grouped can change they're meaning- for example if you stop and search one group 3.7x more than the other (in the case for black people v white people - 2023) then yes you find more criminal offences. All the evidence shows that there's adultifcaiton of BAME groups and often illegal searches of them. In the Lammy Review they found that Black people were more than 3x more likely to be arrested and 5x more likely to receive over-use of police force. This is despite the difference in population with Black people only being around 4% of the population. So if there's any two-tier policing it's policing which disproportionately impacts marginalised groups. Look at the prison population - most people went to care (25% in 2013 review but are only 1% of general population), suffer from addiction issues, are working-class and homeless.

I believe the police should treat everyone the same, and be unbiased and non-political whatever the person’s political views, religion or race, or however obnoxious they are.

I believe in peaceful protest and freedom of speech.

I don’t believe in policing the internet, I would rather they focus on other priorities.

You appear to be trying to draw me into admitting I’m against certain demographics, I’m not but I like fairness and transparency.

It appears that this man should not have been arrested, certainly not surrounded by 11 officers, even if not fully involved in the arrest. It doesn’t look good at all. Especially when you compare this to other more aggressive, violent protests which incite violence against certain demographics and whose perpetrators are not arrested. How is that not 2 tier?

It doesn’t matter about your sympathy about the Christian v Muslim comment- that’s irrelevant to his arrest and this thread. He could be a vile individual but still shouldn’t be arrested unless they are prepared to arrest everyone in the same situation.

@Welliesandtweed

Except it’s not.

Which is my point on people wanting their feelings and emotions to take the place of facts.

For example:

https://www.brunel.ac.uk/news-and-events/news/articles/New-sentencing-guidelines-will-make-the-UK's-justice-system-more-fair-not-less-–-expert-view#:~:text=Although%20there%20are%20variations%20across%20age%20groups,average%20custodial%20sentence%20length%20for%20equivalent%20offences.

Although there are variations across age groups and offence types, government statistics suggest that ethnic minority defendants are more likely than white defendants to receive an immediate custodial sentence, rather than a community sentence, for the same seriousness of offence. The statistics also suggest that ethnic minorities have a consistently higher average custodial sentence length for equivalent offences.

For example (for drug searches and use of force)

yjlc.uk/resources/legal-updates/racial-disparity-stop-and-search-new-report-calls-greater-scrutiny-self

The evidence shows that there is significant disproportionality in the use of stop and search powers on Black, Asian and Minority Ethnic ('BAME') people. In 2019/20, BAME people were stopped and searched at a rate 4.1 times higher than White people. Black people were 8.3 times more likely to be searched than White people, despite the fact that the rate of finding drugs on Black people was slightly lower than for White people.
In the records examined, Black people were 5.7 times more likely to experience force from police than White people, and 9 times more likely to have Tasers used on them. Given this evidence, is it the case that force is being used on Black people simply with less justification, or are there other explanations that can be offered? So far there have been no satisfactory evidenced-based reasons given for the disproportionality overserved. Whilst disproportionality doesn’t necessarily indicate misapplication of powers, it’s important that forces are able to explain any discrepancies and demonstrate that their use of power is lawful and fair.

For example

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/metropolitan-policeuk603fa18ec5b617a7e411ffc5

London’s Metropolitan Police is more likely to issue details of a criminal sentencing if it involves a Black person, our analysis has shown.

What is the point of that? Can we not all discuss together as adults.

If you mean me I am politically homeless and have voted 3 different parties in the last 3 elections

I would bet my house that you don't believe Lucy Connolly should be in jail do you?

A young white woman is also not likely to be involved in gang related crime, or drug crime or knife crime or carrying a firearm.

its not rocket science.

Well Do you?

The law is absolute, so if you break a law you will be dealt with accordingly, if the CPS decide there is enough evidence to prove you broke that law and they can be assured of a conviction. Waste of valuable resources if not.

Two tier policing occurs when bias and societal pressures are at play when it comes to stop and search/arrest, but once at that point there is actually a fairly robust process the Police have to follow.

Most laws can be changed if people are really bothered by them, start a campaign, put the hours in !

Two-tier policing certainly exists, as many PPs have pointed out - the police are institutionally racist and sexist, and this is borne out in the statistics (whether it be deaths in custody, who gets tasered, whose complaints aren't taken seriously or properly investigated etc).

In the case of protesting - something which the OP says they're interested in - it's striking how different groups are treated by the State, eg
Palestine Action being 'proscribed' for doing exactly what lots of other anti-arms-trade protestors have done over the years - taking direct action against military hardware to prevent it being used to commit genocide/ illegal warfare
The huge sentences handed down to members of some peaceful protest groups (like Extinction Rebellion or Just Stop Oil), for causing the same kind of disruption to traffic as other groups of demonstrators (eg all those men driving tractors through London)

So why wasn’t the ethnicity of the Rotherham rapists and groomers even recorded in some cases? For fear of appearing discriminatory.

Two tier works both ways now.

Tbh I agree in the majority of cases there is simply not enough policing at all , even in the most serious of cases. I don’t know what the stats are around groups most commonly linked to the most serious crimes… knife crime, drugs and related offences, armed robberies, rape… but whatever they are I think our policing should reflect them.

Use Google.

I know it’s not going to be that the police are racist but does anyone have any clue what the OP is actually referring to

Have just seen the video of the lad arrested at pride. People on the opposite side of that debate have been acting threateningly and violently at events like LWS in full view of the police for years without being arrested. So yes, in my view there is the "good cop tier" of policing for people whose views align with orgs like the college of policing and the "bad cop tier" for their opponents.

See comment below, only so many times I can explain it

Compare what she wrote, in a tweet, to the real life threats made to the teacher in Batley who had to go into hiding, and may still be in hiding, because of a lesson he gave about free speech. None of those who threatened him and his family were even arrested, far less sent to prison.

Suspended Labour councillor, Ricky Jones called for protestors ‘throats to be cut’ after the Southport murders. He was arrested in August last year, and is still on bail awaiting trial.

I didn’t like what she wrote, but I think her sentencing, and treatment in prison is disproportionate to the way others have been dealt with.

There are a fair number of police forces in the US that are in large proportion black, have black leadership, and in cities with black civic leadership.

I don't believe there is actually a lot of difference in the policing in those cities, I'm not sure the issue is mainly about the attitudes of the police.

Yes but in criminal always circumstances matter - so that same tweet when there aren't riots across the country and people actually targeting immigrant's homes will receive a less sentence. What she did was ignited violence and whilst it will always be a criminal offence when people are engaging in that behaviour, her message is only going to encourage it more = higher sentence. This is because it will be an aggravating factor in sentencing.

Similarly, if there was a serial killer going around for weeks, then a tweet etc encouraging further stabbings or instructions on how to make an explosive whilst there's a string of attacks. Your sentence will be more severe because of the circumstances in which you incited violence, when the chances of it being acted on were higher. That's how the law works in England and Wales. So you cannot compare it to similar offences done in isolation.

@TheLivelyViper Ricky Jones was on film, inciting a crowd to ‘slash the throats of the rioters’. He’s still on bail. Joseph Haythorne tweeted ‘burn any hotel with the scruffy bastards in it’. He got 15 months.

@Seymour5 I can't comment on every case, all I will say is that Lucy pled guilty so it's quicker. There is a massive backlog across cases so if Ricky Jones is going to trial (he clearly hasn't pled guilty) and thus a judge has given him bail conditions, deeming him safe enough till his trial I'm assuming. Not very familiar with his case, but loads of people are waiting for their trail date. Depending on the alleged offences, some will get bail, some not.

Also like I said in an earlier post, we can never, unless we're involved in the case know the whole circumstances and as the court of appeal deemed Lucy's sentence just, there's nothing else to say. Both the sentences of Joseph Haythorne (again not familiar) will fall into the appropriate sentencing guidelines and they may have had more charges than each other, as well as other factors which the judge always considers both mitigating and aggravating factors. All sentences even for the same charge can be different - judges use situational judgement, it's why we can't just replace them with a robot that doesn't consider circumstances but just gives x crime y number of years. Judges also don't just sentence custodially, there will always be other elements e.g community work, anger management classes etc. So yes sentences differ, sometimes widely, that's the system working, it's not just for them.

Also stats show that BAME individuals receive longer sentences and more custodail sentences. BAME men on average spend 33.1 months in prison (Black and Asian), for white men it's 21.5. So Black and Asian men are spending 54% longer often for the same offence in 2022/23. Cases like the one below where black youth are criminalised for music are still happening. This poor boy lost 3 years in prison, because of a music video and him being falsely identified in it.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025/may/01/ade-adedeji-manchester-release-conviction-quashed-drill-music-video