AIBU to work outside of work hours?

[Greywarden]

DH and I both work full-time. We have a toddler DD. I have posted before about how much we are struggling with things like housework, decluttering and generally managing our routines, and have received some great advice which has helped a lot. I'm hoping I might get some helpful advice again.

DH is more senior than I am at work - he is a manager and earns a fair bit more. His role has a lot of stresses involved. However, he has been in the job for a long time and gets a lot of flexibility over his calendar and over what tasks he takes on. He is almost always able to finish work at 5pm and then leave it 'at the door'.

In contrast my role is more middling and is stressful in a different way. My job also represents a significant promotion and change from my previous work. It has been a steep learning curve for me since I started a year and a half ago. My position is actually a training role that involves studying for a uni course alongside my work; my module results get sent to my manager so I always feel under scrutiny, and if I do not pass the course, I will lose my job. There is the prospect of me equalling or surpassing DH's salary in a few years if all goes well but there is a lot of competition for jobs in my field and taking further steps up the career ladder is dependent on showing you've gone above and beyond in your role, leading projects, doing research on top of your regular job etc.

Here's the issue: I often find myself with work to do that I cannot complete within my working hours. What I tend to do is come home shortly after 5, do things with DH and DD, then get down to work again after DD is asleep. Ideally I'd do this maybe 3 nights a week. I generally avoid any work on weekends, although have had to do this a few times when big deadlines have loomed.

My DH hates that I do this. He says that seeing me working in the evenings makes it hard for him to relax; that it stops us from having enough quality time together; that it means that he ends up doing more with DD than I do and he does not get enough breaks (I'm dubious about this one as I still am the one who seems to get up with her most mornings whilst he has a lie-in); and that he is worried about my mental health given how much stress I seem to be under. He keeps saying I should just say no to some of the work I'm being given. He also points out - and he is right on this - that some of the things I'm doing are as a result of me agreeing to be part of extra projects beyond the remit of my job role and that I shouldn't be doing this when I'm already struggling with my workload.

My arguments are that: doing extra work outside of regular hours goes with the territory of my job (literally everyone else on my uni course and everyone else at a similar level to me at work is doing late nights and weekend work); that I'm actually doing less than a lot of my colleagues; that I have to show willing for extra projects if I'm going to have any chance of further promotion; that he was the one who supported me to go for this job in the first place and that I'd warned him from the start about what would be involved. I'd add that his disapproval of me working in the evenings is actually making my stress levels worse because now I'm having to put work aside to hang out / watch TV with him, then wake up very early in the mornings to do the extra work instead. In secret. I'm shattered. I don't socialise with friends or do hobbies anymore because I worry it would be too selfish of me to do this when I'm already taking time away from family life to work.

My DH has suggested that I don't worry about promotions etc and that maybe I'd be happier if I went part-time to have more time with DD, or moved back into a less stressful position. He's probably right: I would be happier. But opportunities like the one I've got now are gold dust in my profession and I don't want to waste it. DH is also a lot older than I am and wants to retire soon - he's full of plans about travelling the world with friends etc and sees it as my turn to pay for a larger proportion of things, and I don't get how we're going to afford the future he wants if I step back in my own career.

Who is being unreasonable? I get so angry when he asks me to do less work, like it feels as though he sees my work as trivial and is accusing me of being inefficient. But I'm not stupid and I'm not inefficient, and my work is important, and I'm working as hard as I can in my working hours (never take a lunch break etc) but it just never seems to be enough. At the same time I worry that I'm being selfish and letting my family down. It feels like I'll be letting them down whatever I do to be honest.

I'll add that I do actually love spending time with my DH and am not trying to use work to avoid him, but understandably I think he suspects this.

YABU to work outside of work hours
YANBU to do this

If your employer is paying for your course theres usually an arrangement that you get x amount of employment time to study and you put in roughly the same amount evenings and weekends. I’ve never heard of any employer offering enough working time for studying. Same for all professions as you the individual benefits more than the employer often, particularly if you change jobs!

I’ve never worked anywhere which operated flexi hours. You just to ensure the job is done.

My DH has suggested that I don't worry about promotions etc and that maybe I'd be happier if I went part-time to have more time with DD, or moved back into a less stressful position

DH is also a lot older than I am and wants to retire soon - he's full of plans about travelling the world with friends etc and sees it as my turn to pay for a larger proportion of things

So you are supposed to work less hours, turn down promotions and step down into a more junior role whilst simultaneously earning enough that your DH can stop work altogether and travel the world while you pay for everything and look after the DC?

He's not just unreasonable, he's fucking deluded.

Husband issues aside, are you sure the massive extra effort you are putting in to your job is going to pay off in the long run? Plenty of employers are happy to take every bit of free labour you can give them and then discard you when you burn out or give the promotion to someone else. It's just a job.

Agree. If it's a professional job the contract almost always says that you are required to dedicate as much time to the role as may be required. It's not like a clock on clock off job where you can get flexi time or overtime pay for "extra" hours. The salary in a professional job will usually reflect that expectation.

Here's a query. Would he struggle to relax if you were doing housework around the house instead of studying?

For a lot of people a career is more than just a job.
My career is a huge part of my identity.

At the moment your in the trenches with a small child, a demanding job and doing further study that will benefit your career long term. Your DH is older than you with a management job and normal hours. He is complaining about the hours your working and the extra study. I feel he is doing this because it means he has to step up more at home with cleaning, cooking and looking after his child.
Of course if you went PT or dropped the study it would make his life easier outside work.

At this stage I would say to him that unless you do the extra hours and study now you won't progress career or money wise. Ask him does he want to work beyond retirement age because your child is still in secondary school or in university and he needs to do this money wise because your PT job won't support 3 of you and put your child through college?
Tell him you look at this as short term pain for a long term gain. I would also pay 50/50 for a cleaner and do an online shop for food to be delivered at a time he is home.

When the college year ends aim that your just doing one night a week extra work and make a plan for a family holiday then. Try to meet up with friends for the odd meal out and some child free time also.
For your own physical and mental health you need work and child free time.
As a friend of mine said work is part of life but not your whole life.

I have seen friends in your situation and this is what worked for them.

One couple I know had kids and both working full time. They got a cleaner in twice a week 2 days apart. The cleaner did all the clothes washing day 1 and hug it on drying racks in one room. They also did some cleaning that day. Day 2 was ironing and putting away clean clothes and some other cleaning.
They also did an online shop and got it delivered. They did a lot of batch cooking once a month and had individual dinners frozen from this so they had dinners ready for busy days.

One of my friends husband was doing a masters and had a demanding job. At the same time they had a small child and toddler and she was working also. She stayed in full time work.
It was hard going for a few years but it led to him getting a good promotion. They are now both upping payments into their pensions and planning to retire at 60.

In a few years time you will have your further qualifications and more experience to go for promotion or to get a better job elsewhere. Or it could lead to a job that still pays well but with less hours.

You're not being unreasonable to want to progress in your career, and you're modelling an ambitious work and career ethic for your child.
I would say that, though! I also worked full-time and did a uni course on the side. In fact, two uni courses, the second being a PhD. The only way was to do evenings and weekends of study. My partner is now doing a masters alongside working full-time. It's their turn.
Your husband sounds as though he thinks your primary role should be running the house and being a caregiver to your child. Get a cleaner, send laundry out to a service, do whatever you need to make things easier. The alternative is that your husband takes on half of the home things. If you don't think you can even have that conversation, you've got a very big husband problem.

I went through similar to really get my career going. First big promotion was about 5 yrs ago and I had a couple of all consuming jobs. It paid off though - in my last job and current one I’ve been able to both increase my salary and dictate my own ways/pace of working so I get the best of both worlds - high salary and lots of family time.

I agree with others who are saying listen to what your DH is saying - he resents that you’re moving towards equalling or surpassing him at work and sees the childcare as your responsibility.

My DD’s father was furious when I started climbing the ladder, I’m now significantly more senior/successful than he will ever be. Men who have these fixed ideas about gender roles and an over inflated sense of their own importance in the world hate when their women challenge their set in stone norms. They can harbour these views in a way that it’s not evident until something challenges it, then you get a nasty surprise - I think that’s what’s happening here OP.

This. Anyone who says “I wouldn’t work for free” / “No way would I work past contracted hours” etc has clearly never worked in a (highly paid) professional job. That’s just not how it works - you work when needed and are expected to pick up emails on weekends and holidays but in exchange you get paid a lot and there is usually a good level of flexibility.

OP - I think your husband is being unreasonable. Maybe worth reminding him what it was like when he was climbing the ladder!

You definitely have a husband problem. Sounds like he wants you to be in an easy, stress free part time role, which miraculously pays a high wage. Then you can be the perfect wife and homemaker.

Carry on with the career progression - if he carries on like this you might not want to stay with him. Please don't throw away the work you've done towards the degree.

If you have a young child, when on earth does he think he's going to be doing the travelling? And is it going to be your role to stay home and parent while he's off on a jolly?

He sounds like he's living in cloud cuckoo land.

It depends what profession the OP is in. I work way over my contracted hours but that's the way it is in my chosen career. It's a lot easier now than it was when I was training though, and I've also learned to work smarter instead of harder and not to try and reinvent the wheel 🙂

The problem os that

A) you're trying to keep up with people who don't have families
B) you're minimising spending time with him. You phrase it as just watching tv or hanging out but that is what a relationship is.

Coupled with endless tidying and decluttering, it sounds like a slog.

It'd great you want to progress and you should expect support, but the flip.sode is respecting that you are in the age and stage of having a young family and so all the extras aren't feasible for 3+ years. Your family is young now.

Perhaps the compromise is to pull back to the minimum now and focus on those extras in the final year when they will count as more recent experience.

When you signed up for this, what expectations did you have? Did you both agree to the level of work you are doing?

Interesting that this is the post you chose to reply to, rather than the ones pointing out that your husband is being selfish and is not supporting your aspirations. Why would that be do you think @Greywarden ?

Just go for it- studying isn’t forever. Point out what you’re doing family wise and really make the point that you’ll all be better off with a higher wage

Honestly it was because I've been out all afternoon. The post I replied to led me to feeling quite annoyed and it felt very easy to respond quickly. The other posts on here have been more thought-provoking and unsettling, and it's taken longer for me to mull over how to reply.

I do think some posters are right that me and DH have different expectations of our marriage. I don't think it's true that DH expects me to do most of the housework and childcare - it genuinely seems to be more about him wanting weekends to be protected for family time the three of us and wants most evenings with me. It is telling for me that whilst I encourage him to go out with friends whenever he wants, he rarely goes as says he would rather see them with me when I'm free too. Even if I had no work to do in the evenings, I think I would still find this dynamic quite difficult.

I also think it's true that my DH has contradictory expectations of me as being there for him and the family but also being a good earner. He doesn't seem to appreciate the tension between these things.

In my DH's defense... a lot of people on here have been pointing out that the studying and late working is just temporary, but if I'm honest I've always had the tendency to overwork even when it hasn't strictly been needed. It came from many years of getting most of my self esteem and motivation from work and feeling married to my previous career. So when I say I just need his support to get through this difficult time, DH is probably thinking 'when will it end? What will the next excuse to work late be?' I think it has taken reading the replies on this thread to help me reflect a bit more honestly on that.

Overall it's not a clear right and wrong situation but thank you to everyone who has helped me to think more clearly about what is going on here. I will talk to my DH about it and try to explain where I'm coming from a bit more, and hopefully learn more about his perspective in the process.

This is a temporary issue from the sounds of it, which should have a good pay off. For what it's worth, I have worked in the evenings as well as the day for my entire career because it's completely expected in my chosen job/sector. I actually think 3 evenings of work a week is totally reasonable. I do try to prioritise DP on the evenings that I'm not working, but I don't think it's unreasonable to do separate things 3 evenings a week. Many people do that with different hobbies.

Your DH is being totally unreasonable to expect you to magically keep up with a demanding job + do more of the childcare (getting up with the DC every morning) + manage all the housework+ have every evening free for him. I don't manage even close to half of what you are being expected to do.

Oh yes and for those who mentioned it: there is no prospect of overtime. I take the point about how people doing extra work for free contribute to the culture in which this becomes expected of everyone and people get exploited. Against that I have to balance the reality that my field is choked with people chasing the same small number of posts, that large numbers of over-qualified people apply for each post and that employers can therefore demand what they like. This is already my second career and I want to be competitive and have the chance of the most interesting, fulfilling and well-paid role within it that I can, and this limits my readiness to try to take a stand. I'm not a total coward about it and have called out unfair things before but realistically I don't think the broader culture will change and I want to succeed! I realise that might make some people think I really suck...

Take a look at the people who were promoted to the higher roles you one day want to achieve, and ask yourself: Did they really work overtime and make this extra effort? You mentioned that you tend to do this in every job. Is it really necessary to take on so many extra projects to make yourself appealing on the job market?

At one point, I was in the same-level role as another lady (we were both people managers, for different regions, same volume, projects, etc.). I always closed my laptop at 5 PM and went home to my family. I progressed nicely in my career, got promoted, and was consistently rated as outstanding in annual reviews. She used to stay late at the office, work overtime all the time, and often complained that she didn’t have enough time to finish her tasks.

Make a list of all the basic tasks you need to complete and estimate how much time each one takes. Then see how much time you’re left with during your standard working hours. Use that time to take on extra projects, if needed. If you really want to show that you’re willing to go the extra mile, factor in a few additional hours that you and your husband are willing to dedicate to work.
Also, although I don't know the field you are in, think about alternative ways of doing tasks that might be faster, take advantage of AI, sometimes it prompts some nice ideas.
That’s what I would do.

I have the same tendency to get caught up in work. And at times, when it was needed, I did that—with support from my husband when it came to the house and our child. But he is also the first to keep me grounded and remind me what is truly important in life (family), and point out when work starts taking over.

Also I have a good friend that in 20 years ai know him, changed a few jobs and he always had the most demanding stressful jobs. What I want to say, is a thing about how you prossition yourself with work.

Good luck!

"My DH has suggested that I don't worry about promotions etc and that maybe I'd be happier if I went part-time to have more time with DD, or moved back into a less stressful position
DH is also a lot older than I am and wants to retire soon - he's full of plans about travelling the world with friends etc and sees it as my turn to pay for a larger proportion of things"

His expectations contradict each other.

He wants you to go part time instead of working extra for a promotion and so you can do the domestic things he doesn't want to. This will decrease your likelihood of advancement on the job ladder. You'll be earning less.

But he wants you to support him in his retirement. What about your retirement after you've scuttled your career advancement to do domestic chores he doesn't like and earning less to put into your retirement pot?

Guuuurl.

" I don't think it's true that DH expects me to do most of the housework and childcare "

But those were his stated objections.

And look at his plans. You guys have a toddler but he plans to retire soon and travel the world.

What will you guys be doing with your young kid?

No, it is a snide comment usually directed at a woman.

I am indeed worried about how his travel plans will fit with DD being in primary school. If he retires in the next 5 years it would be incredible if he could pick DD up and spend time with her after school, but if he's going to be travelling a lot, I'll either need to change my hours or get an after school club, and neither are things that can easily be dropped / restarted at will (nor would I want DD to have a lack of routine).

I think he probably has more of a 10 year timeline in mind though. He isn't sure. His feelings change with the ebbs and flows of stress in his job, which I can understand as what he does is not easy.

I haven't spoken to DH about the work issue yet in a larger sense but did say I'd need to do some extra in the week ahead. His worries do seem pretty focused on my wellbeing. He reminded me the other day that he's seen me make myself miserable and stressed through over-working before, and he is right - I have. I'm the sort of person who feels over responsible for everything. Then again I'd still argue my job genuinely requires a lot of work beyond regular hours. If I knew a single person in a similar role who wasn't logging on late regularly, I'd be asking their secrets, but I don't.

This isn’t about YABU or YANBU. Both options are legitimate. Plenty of people invest in their careers by either working long hours or extra hours. But just don’t kid yourself that doesn’t come without costs. Costs in terms of less time spent outside of work, with partners, children, friends, etc. if you feel that’s worth it, continue; if you feel it isn’t, don’t.

When studying alongside working ot does indeed more time than normal working hours.

With teacher training I would be at school all day and then have to work on my assignments in the evenings,, this was before DC.

Have some dinner then straight back to studying every night. The days before inet so it was reading books, making notes, then typing up. Xxx