Trans toilets

[SharkBaitOooHaha]

I was under the impression that the supreme court ruling stating that to be considered a woman you had to have been born a biological woman, meaning…
Shop changing rooms had to be female/male same with toilets and all women only spaces.
I I live in a small village and trans people using my workplace’s toilets and changing rooms doesn’t really come up as an issue. Talking to my boss about this and he said he has had no instruction to change our current unisex toilet space or if it arises our changing rooms having to follow the new rule of.. If you’re a trans woman you need to go into the men’s changing rooms.
My question is, who is supposed to be making sure these rules are followed, how long have companies got to change their toilet facilities? Has anybody else who works in a job with fitting rooms noticed that there company doesn’t seem in a rush to change things? Until I brought this up at work my manager wasn’t even aware of the court ruling?

That's incorrect. If it is signposted as a female changing room, then only biological women are legally allowed to enter. This has always been the law, the Supreme Court just clarified it because so many companies were ignoring it.

Has your friend told her insurance company that she intends to not follow the law?

If the toilets in her pub are designated for men and for women and she allows customers to use the ones they prefer, then she is breaking the law.

she could choose to make them all mixed sex, but that might be sex discrimination one two fronts - men will have more choice of facilities than women (because they can use the now mixed sex facilities with urinals as well as the ones with cubicles), and the lack of women only facilities is likely to have a more adverse impact on women than men.

@SharkBaitOooHaha interestingly Bannatynes is the only gym chain which has always enforced single sex changing rooms, even before the supreme court ruling. Duncan Bannatyne has been brilliant on women’s spaces and sports

That is legal as long as the toilets signage makes it clear that they are unisex. She cannot use female only signage if men are allowed in - that would be breaking the law.

Tbh, if business owners cannot read and understand a clear piece of legislation they probably shouldn't be running a business. What about health and safety rules? Tax returns? Regulations around minimum wage for example? Is it ok to just ignore those as well?

With a cis-tern.

But yet, they do not need to change anything to comply with legislation.

There are little stick figures on the doors, as is usual in a pub, (actually it's been a long time since I've seen the words 'male' and 'female' on a pub door - have I ever?) and she's not going to ban anyone from the toilet. It's really as simple as that. There's really not anything that anyone can do about it. Especially given like I said, patrons of her pub would not want her to ban anyone. The only outcome I've seen is natal women being harassed in toilets for not looking womanly enough. (Including me - I'm muscular, tall and bald so have got dirty looks!) A woman was fired in America for looking trans after being confronted by a man about using the bathroom

Can I ask again how anyone intends to actually enforce this? What does it look like practically? Security guards? Chromosome testing at the door? Noone seems to be able to answer that question.

Anyway I'm off to garden. Noone will be able to change her mind, and this ridiculous rhetoric is totally unenforcable. Feel free to stay away from the scary pub where trans people pee in peace and nobody gives a shit.

If the responses I’ve had so far are anything to go by it’s not black and white. As another example I won’t use the changing room in my local Primark because it’s unisex and they don’t even provide doors, just curtains. I thought the ruling meant Primark would now legally have to provide a space to change just for women.
I was asking because I thought someone (business owner with male/female facilities) could let me know when the change would happen and who is enforcing it. I thought maybe places like my local primark would get audited and be told they have until … to change their fitting room areas, apparently not though, so if nobody is policing it the new ruling is completely pointless.

It will be “enforced” as it was 10 or so years ago before some men decided women couldn’t have anything for themselves. We expect all men, however they identify to follow the law, and businesses to enforce it if they are told it’s being broken.

most importantly the ruling means that rape crisis centres, prisons, hospital wards, DV refuges and other critical women only spaces can be enforced.

It actually is black and white, some people just don't want it to be that way, so they are misrepresenting what the ruling (and the law) actually is. Honestly, it's very simple. Read the judgment yourself.

It isn't just about toilets, although it suits certain people to make it so. It is about rape crisis centres, domestic violence refuges, prisons, hospital wards, medical procedures, intimate care, vulnerable children and adults. Deflecting the subject to toilets takes the attention off things like a man being in charge of a rape refuge in Edinburgh, convicted male prisoners being placed in women's prisons, dangerous men getting into women's refuges, disabled women being forced to accept intimate care from men. What has been allowed to happen to vulnerable women and children over the last 10 years has been a disgrace.

But it isn’t being enforced, there isn’t going to be a 16 year old Saturday girl stood at the changing rooms of Marks and Spencer (again for example) telling trans people they can’t just go around doing what they want and it would be unfair to expect that. My boss didn’t know about the ruling but in conversation with me he has the opinion that it’s a good thing. Others I work with, also management disagree with it, that’s why it needs to be enforced or it really is pointless, how it’s enforced though I don’t know, that’s why I was asking.

Yes, they always reduce it down to toilets because it's the easiest one to wave away with a dismissive "they just want to pee." It's actually far more serious than that.

I agree.

Yeah, she needs to change her stick figures.

I have a friend in slightly similar circumstances - she runs a weekly club night in a function room above a pub. It attracts an 'alternative' crowd, including several trans regulars, but also for as long as anyone can remember, women have been using the Gents to avoid queueing, & men have been using the mirrors in the Ladies to check their make up. She doesn't want to change this, & nor would her clientele.

She & the pub landlord (who doesn't much care who wees where but wants to be legally compliant) have looked into it, taken advice, & she is now using temporary signage on the loos for her club night, which covers the stick figures & makes it clear both are unisex. The signs are temporary cover ups because other people also book the room, & so it defaults to male/female unless whoever books it wants unisex.

Your mate also needs to supply single sex facilities for her bar staff (can be an enclosed unisex staff toilet, so long as it's single occupancy). My friend is covered here as the staff can use the single sex toilets in the main bar, if they don't want to use the unisex facilities in the club room (as can any punters who want a single sex toilet - they just get their hand stamped to leave the club room & come back).

It's really not as simple as just 'yah boo sucks let's ignore the law'. Your friend could easily have her arrangements challenged by a disgruntled customer or member of staff.

Well, there's no one standing around to ensure you don't drive through a red light, burgle someone's house or murder them, is there? The onus is on us to follow the law because that's the kind of society we want to live in. People who break the rules can be dealt with if and when it's reported. Obviously, we're not going to put the trans activists' favourite "genital inspections' into action.

People who say this are basically saying trans people can't be trusted to follow the law.

This. It’s wild how grown adults can’t understand something so simple.

She's not going to change her toilets. I appreciate your friend for not wanting to rock the boat, but this just isn't a principle that she's willing to betray. She just isn't prepared to discriminate, and at the moment noone can force her to. Someone has answered the question anyway - it's not going to be enforced apparently so that's grand.
She has put some progress pride flags above the stick figures anyway so hopefully that will enough to scare off anyone who would 'challenge it'. I highly doubt anyone on here would last two minutes in the pub as there are trans and non binary employees who have their identities respected.

I must get on with the gardening so blocking this thread now.

Your pal isn’t above the law though. She needs to show her toilets are mixed sex if that’s her stance or accept that she’s a law breaker. It’s not difficult.

But clearly she is prepared to discriminate, quite blatantly.

The irony is so lost!

Well, I hope she gets sued. She's breaking the law and discriminating against women who need single-sex at the end of the day.

There are no new rules, OP.

The rules have always been that female spaces are for female people and male spaces are for male people.

Trans people should be using spaces for their own sex, or a unisex space if one is available.

Only toilets which are a fully self contained lockable room with a sink can be designated as unisex.