Non-binary teacher?

[Thompson198]

Name change.
I’ve got a 5 year old daughter due to go into year 2 in September. We’ve just been told that the teacher for next year is a non-binary/‘non-gender-conforming’ man who wants to be referred to by ‘Mx’ (pronounced mix) and they/them pronouns.
Quite a few of the parents have already complained and started looking for other places at local schools because of this.
what do you think?
My daughter has SEN and is one of the youngest in her class, I worry how she’s going to be able to keep up with the pronouns and understand this without us having to teach her about gender ideology at her age. My husband is extremely against teaching her gender ideology, especially so young, I’m not the most positive about it either but don’t feel as strongly as him. He also doesn’t want her being at the school in September but they have been very supportive for her so far and I’m concerned it might not be the same elsewhere.
Thoughts? How would you feel if this was your child’s teacher?

But the conversation really doesn’t need to be so convoluted at that age, does it?

q- Why is Mx Teacher called Mx?
a- That’s their chosen name.

To a degree this only arises as we still identify teachers formally. This has largely been dropped for other professions. If Mx Bankmanager or Mx Manager (my boss) still used this formal convention then it would indeed simply be common courtesy to refer to their chosen title.

HE is clearly not a good teacher, isn’t that obvious already? If HE was a good teacher HE wouldn’t be inflicting HIS fucking nonsense onto children. No way would I put up with that OP.

You're ignoring the pronoun issue here.

Other than not ‘pandering’ to someone’s choices, which is something we do constantly eg with religious people and normally called tolerance, what is the actual concern about the children involved? My ds is gay and has several non-binary friends and my much younger dd has met them all and it has been a total non issue.

How so?

Personally I think titles are pretty outdated and life would be easier if nobody used them. We got rid of them in the professional world decades ago. Having to call your teacher “Mr Jones” or “Mrs Brown” is very anachronistic. Nobody calls their boss at work “Mrs Green” unless they work in a 1970s department store or their boss is some sort of mad dictator.

You really ought to get together with the other concerned parents and insist on a courteous but absolutely frank one-to-one with the Head Teacher, and then work out what to do after that. Who knows, the head might be on your side but feel like she has no choice but to assent to it.

I’m increasingly coming to the view that everyone now has a responsibility to make all of this extremism stop. It’s fucking up everything. But ranting away among ourselves, as atomised individuals, isn't going to achieve anything. We really ought to be organising and if it means people think we’re bigots or just generally dicks, so be it.

Somebody’s got to do that job after all, there’s been almost no opposition to anything my whole adult life and look where it’s got us.

Yes but you are not a 'non binary' speshul case for whom 'words are literal violence'.

Which has nothing to do with whether the teacher wants to go by Mx

I kind of think it's worth separating the general and the personal here. In general I'm not a fan of gender ideology. However as a society we've let gender ideology become a really big thing over the last 10 years or so.

If this teacher is newly qualified then I'm guessing they're quite young. Say they're 22 or 23, they've probably been inundated with gender ideology for all their teenage and young adult years. We as a society have to take a bit of responsibility for that. It doesn't mean the teacher is a bad person or a bad teacher. They are just a product of their time.

With the 6 year old I wouldn't over complicate it. I'd probably just say they are a man but they prefer being called Mx Teacher instead of Mr Teacher and "they" instead of "he". I think "I'm not sure" is a useful phrase here. "Why do they like Mx better?" "I'm not sure, I think they just prefer it."

Op, can I ask, how do you know he is gender-non conforming, and wants to be referred to as Mx, and uses they/them? Have you had comms from the school on this?

If so, I would be concerned that his “whole self” has been the main subject of any comms over his teaching ability. It’s utter nonsense to say any more than “Op, your child’s teacher in September will be Mx Smith, who joins the school from xyx. Next September the children will be exploring xyz subjects in the new term.”

Are they nice, kind, warm? good teacher?
If you respect the head and they’re committed to this teacher and you like the rest of the school I would have no issues whatsoever.
Kids are very accepting of colour, race religion… everything. Doubt whether they will notice or care . X

That's absurd.

In law, our requests are always measured by how 'reasonable' they are.

Put bluntly: this is not reasonable.

I thought we were on the turn in society with all this blue hair brigade madness ?

I remember people saying women shouldn’t pole vault because it would twist their wombs, and all Irish people were stupid - what is your point? Prejudice and ignorance in the past means we can’t challenge anyone on their beliefs because #BeeeKiiiind?

Non-binary, like gender, is still a made up thing and always will be.

I think I'd cautiously crack on in your scenario OP. With reassurance from the Head than no gender discussions would go on in the classroom (i.e. the parents explain), and kids would not be reprimanded or even corrected for getting pronouns wrong.

I don't have an issue with people using different pronouns for themselves. I do have an issue with others being forced to use them as well. A polite, ignorable request is enough.

My son's partner is non-binary and uses they/them. I use those pronouns for her, but I haven't explained it to his young sisters and they use the standard she/her. Once they get older, I will explain, but not now.

Yeah, it’s a wild take to decide that something so inconsequential is worth rejecting a decent school for your SEN child.

Surely if someone is non binary or non gender conforming they are saying that the whole concept of binary identification is unnecessary and outdated thinking, so it doesn’t really matter what they are called because if you are non binary you are rejecting this whole idea of meaningless binary identity. Call me man, call me woman, call me she, call me he, I am non binary and above all that verbal identification, I am what I am which is me.

BUT this person has insisted that he is called they, that he is referred to as Mx, so thereby saying that actually, for him , binary identification is a thing and he is going to bloody well make sure that everyone he comes into contact with, including six year olds , knows that he is a special little person, who will literally be destroyed if anyone misgenders him, even though he is actually non binary and doesn’t conform to outdated stereotypes. Except he does, with bells on and expects everyone else to lie for him.

So , hey teacher, leave those kids alone, they are not here to bolster up your self image and act as a support blanket for you and your muddled up man brain.

So let’s allow all youngsters to grow up with mental health issues?? Ok then! 🤦‍♀️

I don’t think people with such strong needs for gender affirmation should be working with young children. He is expecting the children to reject the evidence of their eyes and ears for his own personal preferences. That’s simply wrong.

I think the concern is though, that you might not realise what's being discussed in the classroom and what your vulnerable child is being exposed to.

Teaching gender ideology might not be on the curriculum, but there may be comments along the way when opportunity presents itself. For example, a child might refer to an unidentified person as male or female, and the teacher may comment that some people are neither as they're non-binary. Or they might say that we don't know what someone is until they tell us how they identify. There are better examples, but you get my drift.

You won't know about these comments until it's become entrenched in your child's mind and they start to repeat it at home. But by that point the damage has been done.

And the reason why I'd be particularly concerned is that there's a disproportionately high number of SEN children who identify as either NB or trans, so exposing them to this ideology at a young age is a bad idea.

I completely understand that withdrawing the child might seem excessive but I think the OP would have to extract cast-iron guarantees from the head that there won't be any comments around gender ideology in the classroom, or the introduction that some people aren't either sex etc. I'm not sure a head could provide that in good faith.

FWIW, I'd happily be friends with NB and trans folk in real life if they weren't twats about it so I'm not a crazed hater. But I think it's perhaps naive to suggest there's no risk at all here.

My son is 4 and calls his teachers and teaching assistants by their first names. So you're right, titles aren't necessary.

But he also refers to them (and all other men and women) using the correct, sex based pronouns. I would be very unhappy if anyone tried to make him use a gender neutral pronoun for an adult who is supposed to be teaching him to read and write. And if anyone did try that I would be honest and explain that, "Max is a man but he likes to pretend that he is a special type of person who is not a man and not a woman. That's why he wants you to say "they" instead of "he". You don't have to do this. He is a man. You can call him "he" if you want to."

How do you know in years to come there won’t be evidence that being non binary will be evidenced and verifiable, just like being gay wasn’t previously? It’s so common there must be something in it.

I can assure you personally that not ‘all gay people’ think it’s too far just as all straight people don’t think it’s ’too far’. It’s just people expressing their views, having the freedom to live life as they wish. They are not hurting anybody. Personally, taking the mystery out of these scenarios is the right way to go with children.

I suppose I’m a very live and let live person, if they aren’t hurting anybody what’s the problem? I personally bring my children up to be open and tolerant to people’s views/lifestyle choices and address these head on as we come across them. I honestly do not beleive that this has an affect on them long term.

This is my feeling too

I worked with someone who went from she/her to they/them and I found it almost impossible. No deliberate slight, just couldn't change or remember to call her they when speaking about her.

There were a couple of zealous allies who would jump into correct you for any slip. It led to me avoiding interactions and skirting around conversations which ultimately affected my work.

I wouldn't want to be in the same position with my child's teacher. Especially if they had SEN and I needed more frequent conversations.

For all those saying it's a little thing, or easy, as a sign of how inclusive you are - consider that for small children some of whom will have learning difficulties, speech difficulties and social and emotional need, it's not.

Some gay people. Many of my gay friends are totally on board with what some transgender people are pushing for. My gay brothers in law are ambivalent to it as they see it as not affecting them.

They most likely will if we bring them up to not be tolerant of other people’s views 😂

This is the problem for me. In order to protect my child from batshit harmful ideas which are presented as fact, I would be denegrating another person, which I don't want to do. I would be undermining the kid's teacher. I don't care what this teacher thinks about himself. But I do care if his beliefs are imposed on my child as facts and I would feel the need to counter.

Is Mx a man or a woman?
He's a man, but he doesn't feel like he fits his idea of what a man is, so he's calling himself Mx so that people know he's different. That's silly because men are all different anyway. Some men like to play football. Some men like to paint pictures.

So does that mean they changed?
No. No one can change

Do they have a Willy still?
It doesn't magically disappear

Do they fancy boys or girls?
Men can fancy men or women. I don't know who he fancies

Is it ok to not be a boy or girl then?
If you're a boy, you're a boy and you'll grow up to be a man. If you're a girl, you're a girl and you'll grow up to be a woman.
Your personality is what you like to do, or what you like to wear, or how loud or quiet or silly or friendly you are. Everyone has a different personality and that doesn't affect if they're a boy or a girl.
Some people think only boys can do this thing and only girls can do that thing. They're wrong.

Can I change?
No. No one can change