Where is the money going to come from to meet the UK people expectations?

[Pandersmum]

So assuming that:

• everyone who receives disability benefits needs them and may actually believe they should be entitled to more
• pensioner benefits are non negotiable and again many believe they should be greater than current
• working people (most) believe they are already taxed highly and believe they cannot be taxed any more without further impact to their feeling of unfairness and resentment of the system
• it is unreasonable to expect young people with ADHD or other similar ND disorders / mental health challenges to work, even if they have qualifications and therefore they must be financially supported by the state
• Mental health challenges are very real in any age of person and therefore they must be financially supported by the state and if in work, by their employers
• rent (whatever level) should be supported by the state because it is a basic right to have a home
• NHS treatment (& the best treatment) should be free be all, no matter how expensive it is or whatever their age because people pay their taxes
• businesses are businesses and are there to make profits for their owners - therefore they can choose which country they operate in / pay their taxes in - if they don’t like the UK tax system, they can move somewhere else
• ’in work benefits’ are necessary to support ‘low paid workers, often in essential jobs’ to gain similar amounts of financial remuneration to those on benefits
• high net worth individuals can move if they don’t like the UK tax system

So just where is the money going to come from to fund the UK population of financial expectation of what the state should provide?

@BIossomtoes current pensioners have not contributed enough in aggregate. Obviously, some individuals have paid a lot of tax but, as this is a society and there is no personal NI piggy bank, it isn't relevant. We could argue that this should be the case but it hasn't been so far. It's you that seems to be arguing that those who die at 70 or those with no children at net contributors. @taxguru is right that everyone benefits from other people's children, most of who work, pay taxes and provide services, to those with and without children.

I'm a bit puzzled as I've seen you say that you are a Labour voter on similar threads and I therefore would have assumed that you would verge more towards collectivism, yet you often seem to make remarks that suggest the opposite. I'm non partisan so it doesn't matter to me either way btw.

I understand your parent's perspective but, as I have tried to explain in several previous posts, it doesn't really work like that nowadays.
The prospects of a large percentage of the population have been destroyed by fiscal and financial decisions. Society has become divided and unpleasant. You only need to read a lot of the comments on here to see how much people hate each other. This isn't just about individuals, although I'm sure we have all made a few piss takers. It's about the mistakes that have been made over several decades, not just in the UK, that have led to the current mess.

Maybe I just don’t fit your stereotype of a Labour voter. Or perhaps I see both sides clearly enough to successfully play devil’s advocate.

Obviously I believe in collectivism which is why it amuses me that posters like @taxguru clearly understand it yet still wang on about net contributors.

That's not how I read those posts by @taxguru that I've seen.
I'm not sure what a typical Labour voter is now. Urban, middle class professional probably as they have deserted the old 'working class' that they used to represent. Perhaps you are more 'New Labour' than Labour! They are all the same now as far as I'm concerned.

In fact I’m left leaning rather than Labour. I’m quite keen on the Greens these days.

That “outrage” was largely political point scoring. Quite a large number of pensioners said they didn’t need it.

Yea, absolutely no pensioner felt they were entitled to it 🙄. Next you'll be telling me hardly any of them voted Brexit 😆

I've noticed how this thread has most moved towards the funding of the NHS rather than the expectations we have of the NHS. Clearly both areas are of interest although I picked up a news item this morning if 28 (people I think) who are receiving hospital treatment as a consequence of illegal use of a particular drug (not from the NHS) for a beauty treatment.

It does seem to me, to an extent at least, that our expectations of the NHS have blossomed enormously over the last 50 or 60 years. In that respect it might be an oblique expectation in so far as we are doing things now that we'd never dreamt of and sometimes the NHS has to pick up the pieces when it all goes horribly wrong. I'm not suggesting it is right or wrong but merely reinforcing the notion that our expectations have changed quite dramatically but, broadly, the NHS and it's funding has been running to catch-up.

No one suggested that the pensions for current pensioners should be means tested now, although it could be considered. The point was being made that current pensioners have contributed far less than they are receiving and are the most privileged of the generations.

When I stated that your post was ironic, etc and that you were happy for young people to be sacrificial lambs, that's already happening. It's already happened wrt pensions and Uni fees, for example. And look at housing!
What you said specifically was this 'I would very much encourage a discussion around changing the state pension for people entering the workplace now'
I interpret that to mean that you are happy for young people to be the sacrificial lambs yet again, so that they have less advantageous pensions. Having complained about the possibility of less advantageous pensions for current pensioners, you advocate it for those who are younger. What other way could it be interpreted?
Still, I'm pleased to hear that you support some review of current pensioner benefits. The massive outcry over the WFA just showed how entitled some pensioners are and how it is essentially politically impossible for any government to cut back. Whatever they suggest, and even though the UK cannot afford what it spends, people will stick the knife in even with a small change.

Apart from that, the way in which young people will clearly receive far less advantageous 'terms' than their parents goes a long way to explain why some have just given up. I've said this in several posts and you and one or two others have perhaps not taken the point.

OK. So you have said pensions for those already receiving them should not change. And young people's pension should not be worse than what people get now. So exactly whose pensions should change then?
The post you were quoting for was specifically around pension credit. I said anyone my age (58) and younger have had plenty of opportunity to take up workplace pensions and should not be bailed out by the taxpayer with pension credit if they chose not to do so.
The reason I said this should start from people entering the workplace was again, to give notice, although thinking about it, it's extra money so maybe it could change earlier.
The problem with tinkering with pensions is that it's something people should plan for all their working life, and once retired, there are few chances to change your income. You can't just pull the rug from people's feet with the core pension entitlement with no notice.
Woukd you be happy to lose a chunk of your income? You haven't answered that.

That wasn’t what I said, was it? 🙄

Woukd you be happy to lose a chunk of your income?

Workers and particularly young people are loosing a chunk of their income due to wage stagnation & frozen tax bands.

"The share of adults paying higher rates has increased enormously in recent decades. In 1991–92 just 3.5% of UK adults paid the 40% higher rate of income tax. By 2022–23 11% were paying higher rates, with that figure set to reach 14% by 2027–28"

"As a result, while in the 1990s essentially no nurses and just 5–6% of teachers paid higher-rate tax, income tax thresholds failing to keep up with average wages means that by 2027–28 more than one in eight nurses and one in four teachers are set to be higher-rate taxpayers."

That wasn’t what I said, was it?

No you said "Quite a large number of pensioners said they didn’t need it." & the outrage was largely due to politicians. I think that is bullshit, plenty of pensioners felt aggrieved even if they didn't need it.
We will likely get Reform in next and a large chunk of their voters will be pensioners but this will likely be minimised because we can't seem to ever hold pensioners responsible for their political actions. Everything is the fault of the boat people and young people having mobile phones. It's tedious.

I wholeheartedly agree. People take the absolute piss out of the NHS, and really take it for granted, and it’s not right.

I have hirutism as a result of PCOS and this often can lead to ingrown hairs and infection, but the NHS wouldn’t cover laser hair removal for me as they considered this a cosmetic treatment, and I’ve had to pay it for myself but can no longer afford it. Then you have people who abuse drugs, alcohol, food, beauty treatments gone wrong. It seems completely unfair. I barely ever use the NHS, as I go private through work, but I have paid taxes all my life.

Then you have people who abuse drugs, alcohol, food, beauty treatments gone wrong. It seems completely unfair.

I think this is way too simplistic & I think it's pretty hard to quantify who deserves treatment & who doesn't.

I didn’t say that either. I said a lot of the outrage was confected to make political capital. There was loads of it on MN from people who used it as a stick to beat the government and who, on other occasions, are all too ready to complain about intergenerational unfairness. As for not holding pensioners responsible for their political actions, I have one word for you - Brexit.

So, why was I refused treatment then?

To take a slight swerve, it's strange how teachers and nurses still manage to com most of the public into believing they are underpaid

I am a worker by the way. Still have 9 years to go in fact.
Pensions are not the same as wages. Workers are worse off, but they have the ability to work more, longer hours, change jobs etc. Not ideal I know but the opportunity is there.
Pensioners by and large can not do this. I am not arguing that means testing should not be introduced but it should be with plenty of notice.
So would you be happy to lose a chunk or even all of your income?

Are you being serious?

I'll take it you are.... my DD is band 6, 37k, takes home 2k pm, car parking and loan repayments for her degree... the level of responsibility is out of this world, as are the conditions she sees and treats.

Should you be unfortunate enough to suffer a serious brain injury, say a stroke, it'll be someone like her that you can tell "You should earn less"

Her BF works in IT, 2 days a week in the office, 3 days wfh, rarely works more than 35hrs per week... salary is 52k, no loan, no parking charges, company car, very much stress free.

That’s because they absolutely are!!!!

Everyone has to pay back their student loan and has costs associated with employment such as commuting. The public sector gets generous pensions to offset lower wages. Thats the trade off. At the end of her working life she can sit down and figure out exactly how much she would have had to save to get a similar annuity to match her pension, it will be substantial.

Not everyone has a loan at all, why do you think that? until the 2010s, healthcare workers got free tuition... no real notice given and has created a 2 tier wage system in the NHS.
Many workers do not pay car parking, public transport isn't an option, due to no buses late at night etc.

Pensions? pays in a substantial % every month.... does that offset lower wages? 40years of a lower standard of living VS 10 or 15 years of a better one but at a time when you might well expect to have failing health, certainly your best years are behind you.

BUT and its a huge BUT... her job satisfaction is huge and she has skills that are transferable to other countries and other industries.

I'm challenging the poster who clams they are conning the public over their relative low pay.

Personally I think it’s appalling that we expect healthcare care professionals to pay student loans. We might retain more of these incredibly expensively trained people if we wrote their loans off if they work for the NHS for a specified period after qualifying.

Agreed.

I am so glad your OH made this decision. My DF had a stem cell transplant and died from complications from it. We therefore only had 6 months with him, rather than the probable 5 years without it. And the process was very, very grim.
I hope your OH continues to respond well to the chemo.