To think that primary schools are sending a really shitty message to well behaved kids

[CathyBlowsBubbles]

DD (10) is not as academic as either her older sister or her older brother (14&11). She’s a lovely child who isn’t struggling but is bang average. She’s never in trouble and tries her best.

All year, she’s been telling me how she was going to work really hard to get a HT’s award given every other month as she’s never got one. (Older sibs both got lots over the course of their primary school) She’s come home tonight in tears which is so rare for her. Naughty kid in her class got it for ‘making an improved effort to listen in class. Now I know that it’s about equity and that he should be rewarded for improving BUT, where’s her reward for calmly and quietly working her socks off all year? Why is that NEVER, EVER rewarded??? How come her older sibs were forever being rewarded for being super high achievers when it all came so easily to them yet she is never recognised.

She is in a class with a high proportion of kids with behavioural issues and right from Infants, any tiny weekly improvement has been seized on and rewarded. Doesn’t change anything. Behaviour is still poor. Kids are still hurting other kids and disrupting lessons. All TA attention and support is given to those kids too to enable the teacher to teach. How is that fair? How is it fair that the TA supports that group and the teacher ‘stretches’ the high achievers twice a week but the cohort in the middle (apart from one who’s disruptive) are just left to get on with it.

Why don’t they ever even say to us, ‘look, the class is too big, the teacher is frazzled, the TA is struggling too, your kid is no trouble so they just need to suck it up!’ They never say that. They never say, ‘we know this child has received rewards frequently over the part 6yrs without impact but we still need to try despite how demotivating it is to kids who try all year and get nothing in return.’ The system is completely broken when kids like my youngest child gets to the end of Y5 effectively unnoticed. My eldest was on their G&T register and somehow she didn’t go unnoticed! 🤨 I feel so angry on DD’s behalf. She’s never going to get the academic accolades that the older two get. AIBU to ask why can’t she be recognised for just being a good kid?

I've always thought this. It's pretty much baked into our culture that there's more rejoicing over the 'repentant sinner' than over the person who's always been good. It's an approach largely based in necessary, where you're obliged to give more attention to problems than you are to things that are running smoothly. It's not going to change, so I think you need to teach your child that success is It's own reward, and make sure she knows that you value her day to day consistency.

'We praise her effort'.

Couldn’t agree more - it’s bullshit. I was this kid - just got on with it, never got in trouble, never complained. Wasn’t amazing at anything but good at everything. Never got any awards at school but parents evenings all teachers said I was a joy to teach. Why couldn’t that have been a bloody award.

Ive got 3 kids at private school and they have awards for absolutely everything and with younger years are so good at evenly giving them out. The lack of naughty kids makes a huge difference as all kids have the basic level expected in a classroom so awards are genuinely given for good reason and there are behaviour ones, sports ones, academic ones, kindness ones. It’s marvellous. From yeh awards you can see I have a sporty kid, a clever kid and a kind kid xx

I’m a teacher and so annoying and frustrated for you on her behalf. I would speak to the teacher and headteacher. Doesn’t need to be a dramatic complaint, but you are speaking to them on behalf of your child. No one else will advocate for her, so explain how and why it has affected her. Don’t make it about other children, just talk about your daughter trying hard all year and the lack of recognition upsetting her.

At the time, 20 years ago, there were programmes to encourage girls in certain areas of the curriculum, eg Sciences, hopefully by now those are no longer needed!

This was DDs primary policy too. So she was ignored for being well behaved and quiet, she sfill complains about it now she has left school.
There were a few occasions where the most badly behaved were picked for special trips above everyone else. Once DD was desperate to be chosen, it was to represent the school. They sent the 2 naughtiest boys, they were sent back to school within the hour. Such a waste.
Ive worked in secondary schools and it does not help the transition. They are completely confused by the fact there are consequences and it’s followed through. I sat with a year 7 who had been automatically permanently excluded for doing something incredibly dangerous. He just kept saying he would be back on Monday as that’s what always happened (in primary).

Absolutely. I go in as a reading volunteer sometimes and I see it in action. It’s the worn down teachers who do it the most. It feels like they’ve given up so they do it to make things a bit easier. I see the same good kids ignored each time (but have no power to change it - apart from trying to give extra praise when they read for me). It makes me feel like giving up.

I feel for you. My DS10 goes to a similar primary. It's rubbish tbh. Kids throw chairs at each other and do TT challenges until they pass out in a classroom. School keeps quiet about this - I only find out through my son. He is academic and the only one in 'challenge 3' group and planning to take 11+. I don't need to mention that the teaching level at the school is very low - they do ca. 1/4 of the national curriculum and son has been bored to death since he has joined 3 years ago. We had to teach him everything at home. The children for 'end of the week awards' are chosen randomly and it's never for academic achievements. I just can't make any sense of it, because where I and DH come from school is about learning stuff like Maths/English/Science and here it seems it's about having fun and appeasing kids all the time. We are just happy it's only 1 year left and can't wait for the grammar (hope it will be better!)

The problem with giving too many awards for attendance or 'hard work' is that it can send the wrong message and it might make pupils think that coming to school every day or not 'working hard' isn’t normal or expected.

From memory, we had no 'awards' like this in my 1970s schooling (except for sports day). Everyone was treated in exactly the same way. We also had very, very little bad behaviour. There was certainly no 'involvement' of parents.

Something has gone terribly wrong with compulsory education in the UK.

Completely agree, I was one of the quiet ones. Just got on with my work and was very average. The popular ones got the prizes. I never got anything.

DD got loads of attendance awards in primary. Although twice she missed the ceremony as she was off sick! They got a medal each time, we had a drawer of them. We’ve just binned them. Genuinely never understood the point. DD didn’t even want them.
The kids who are often absent/late is because of their parents, not them.

Is there any evidence for badly behaved kids being given awards actually improving. All the most challenging kids in DDs primary ended up being PermX from their secondary in the first year.

I was chatting with my wee girl about this thread earlier this morning and she has a good insight into it all now - she rolled her eyes when I mentioned that she hasn't really spoken about the school certificates for a little while, whereas for a time it was a big source of upset. She basically said she's not going to get one for not biting anyone for a week so 'meh' 😆I don't doubt there might still be a lingering hurt there but I'm glad to see her hitching her breeks and moving on from it.

I completely agree. My ds at secondary school had an exemplary parents evening and reports, always does his homework, predicted to get seven As in his exams and and A or B in his final subject. He has never been chosen for the end of year reward trips or been recognised at prize giving. He's a quiet boy (at school) and I believe he just flies under the radar. He isn't super sporty so doesn't get recognised for sports either.

I actually asked the criteria for reward trip this year, as he was miffed to see some of his friends going and he'll need to stay in class. I was told that they to have over 95% attendance (he does but this is shit for kids with health conditions or young carers), and have 'gold' effort in 7 put of 8 subjects.

He has said he doesn't see the point in trying anymore because good results aren't rewarded. 'Effort' is so subjective, he's just laid back, not rude or badly behaved but doesn't stand out either. Obviously we've chatted to him about how proud we are and why he needs to keep going. But I can see his point it's absolutely disheartening!

I hated this when I was in teaching and never bought into it. I rewarded the kids who were well behaved, and the ones who were maybe not the most well behaved in the class but had shown a marked improvement consistently over a period of time, not ones who had just managed to not hit anyone very hard that day.

It's hard to avoid though. I was off sick once and came back to find the TA had given the worst kid in my class Star of the Week because he'd paid attention in one lesson.

Also several times had children sent to the Head of Key Stage for bad behaviour and come back covered in stickers having had fun colouring and getting attention.

If it makes you feel any better, my just above average stepdaughter (Y10) who was completely invisible at Primary School is now getting regular rewards for her behaviour and attitude at Secondary School. She was at an awards ceremony last night for all children who got "Exemplary" for behaviour in lessons in all their reports this year, and will be going to Thorpe Park on a trip to reward students who have shown "consistent effort, positive attitude, and commitment to developing key personal and academic skills" since Year 7.

The most annoying part of this is that it doesn’t work at all for any of the kids. The kids in my school who were disruptive and misbehaved but were awarded still ended up with no qualifications and questionable behaviour as adults. Most have multiple children themselves and live off the state. It’s letting all the kids down in the end.

It’s an issue as old as time - see The Prodigal Son in the bible!

Reminds me of the scene in Mad Men where the junior wants to be thanked for her work and the boss shouts “the money is the thank you!”. It’s kind of like that with exam results. Those pat on the head bits of paper from the teacher for not chewing your shoes that week mean sod all its the gcse / a levels results at the end that are the bit that matter. Teach them that and they won’t care as much.

Ime the quiet kids aren’t angry that other people are being awarded - they are annoyed that their efforts are not being recognised and they don’t /can’t go up to the teacher and ask why they don’t get recognition when they try their best and patiently wait.
Unfortunately the education system favours the extroverts and people who demand attention. It doesn’t respect the quiet grind and because the adults are tired, they assume that quiet means all is well because they aren’t hurting others when quiet could mean anxious and worried.

My DS3 is coming to the end of Year 6 & has only ever had a handful of these awards, none this year. Yet the teacher told us at Parents' Evening that he is above average (in fact, joint top in his class) academically & in sports (was 2nd in Sports Day races & gets selected for extra days), works hard & has never been involved in any fights or friendship issues. But he is quiet, so he remains unacknowledged. All the other boys in his class (10 of them) have some form of SEN, diagnosed or not.

His biggest brother was similarly academic & sporty, but also very confident & got lots of awards all throughout school (just finished GCSES).

His middle brother has lots of SEN, although not behavioural & always got lots of awards for trying hard.

I am hoping DS3 will be recognised in senior school, like his brothers.

So still being rewarded in adult life

Only the state rewards failure 🙄

Now that traditional industries have gone, a significant percentage of the population have nothing to do. They're unsuited to most of the available jobs these days. Their kids know they have no meaningful future so why bother getting an education? Not everyone is suited to academic work. In the past, poorly behaved children knew they'd be employed in an industry, so as long as they could read, write and have some arithmetic, that's all they needed. Thanks to 50% off to university Blair and Thatcher, who destroyed the industries, schools are full of badly behaved children who need rewards just to stop them beating the teacher up.

Bribing and cajoling them into sitting on their backsides until they're 18, then giving them a life on the dole isn't a very good idea. Then the government complains that not enough people are working 🤦🏼‍♀️

I think this kind of attitude is the reason for the gulf between the private and state sector.

I went to a mix of both. In the private sector there was lots of positive feedback for everyone and lots of building our confidence. In the state sector rewards and praise were the "well done for not being naughty for once " kind and everyone else was just kind of left to get on with it.

I hugely value education in its own right, so do my children who both happily learn about all sorts of things in their free time

But when you are part of a community (like a school community) it makes a difference to how you feel about yourself when you are quietly passed over time and again in favour of attention being focussed on the same handful of children

If true, that may well explain why so many coddled ex-private school types crash and burn at a university when no one tells them they're special.

I think that's more to do with the fact some of them they get heavily coached to pass the exams and interviews - tutors, massaged course work, re-sits, someone writing the personal statement for them...

In my experience outside academic life, private school education gives people a sense of confidence and entitlement that makes it easier for them to progress.

I've spent my part of my career building up the confidence of brilliant state educated lawyers who just have so much self doubt. Meanwhile the often less brilliant privately educated lawyers tend to assume they know it all already, and the stupider or snobbier clients are impressed but their confident blustering style

There's a happy middle ground at at the moment most schools don't see to know how to deliver it. But ignoring a whole section of the classroom because they quietly get on with their work isn't the way.

Yes it’s a shame

also I don’t think they are taught any self discipline and they still get paid regardless of what they do

I’m sure some of them could do better but if they’ve got parents who have a bad attitude and a disdain for education it doesn’t help