To think that primary schools are sending a really shitty message to well behaved kids

[CathyBlowsBubbles]

DD (10) is not as academic as either her older sister or her older brother (14&11). She’s a lovely child who isn’t struggling but is bang average. She’s never in trouble and tries her best.

All year, she’s been telling me how she was going to work really hard to get a HT’s award given every other month as she’s never got one. (Older sibs both got lots over the course of their primary school) She’s come home tonight in tears which is so rare for her. Naughty kid in her class got it for ‘making an improved effort to listen in class. Now I know that it’s about equity and that he should be rewarded for improving BUT, where’s her reward for calmly and quietly working her socks off all year? Why is that NEVER, EVER rewarded??? How come her older sibs were forever being rewarded for being super high achievers when it all came so easily to them yet she is never recognised.

She is in a class with a high proportion of kids with behavioural issues and right from Infants, any tiny weekly improvement has been seized on and rewarded. Doesn’t change anything. Behaviour is still poor. Kids are still hurting other kids and disrupting lessons. All TA attention and support is given to those kids too to enable the teacher to teach. How is that fair? How is it fair that the TA supports that group and the teacher ‘stretches’ the high achievers twice a week but the cohort in the middle (apart from one who’s disruptive) are just left to get on with it.

Why don’t they ever even say to us, ‘look, the class is too big, the teacher is frazzled, the TA is struggling too, your kid is no trouble so they just need to suck it up!’ They never say that. They never say, ‘we know this child has received rewards frequently over the part 6yrs without impact but we still need to try despite how demotivating it is to kids who try all year and get nothing in return.’ The system is completely broken when kids like my youngest child gets to the end of Y5 effectively unnoticed. My eldest was on their G&T register and somehow she didn’t go unnoticed! 🤨 I feel so angry on DD’s behalf. She’s never going to get the academic accolades that the older two get. AIBU to ask why can’t she be recognised for just being a good kid?

I agree with all you have said. As a child I was never rewarded anywhere near as much as others, who seemed to have a natural flair and talent for everything they did, whereas I had to keep on trying and trying, will very little gain.

I admit that being the 1980s the concept of rewarding the "bad kids" for any improvement they made was absolutely not a thing, but I will say it's important that you teach your daughter to focus on her own issues of not being rewarded, than looking to others and deciding they shouldn't have been rewarded at all even if everyone knows and can see they don't bloody deserve it. Far better that she tries to make sense of her own situation.

Depends on the school. Some are rubbish and always reward the same kids or the naughty ones. My dc school regularly gives them all merits for various achievements not just academic, and everybody seems to get a chance even the average well behaved kids.

yanbu

I agree with you that it is not fair.
My DS has achieved these based on small Improvements as a younger child. It definitely benefitted him but wasn’t fair other children, now he has impeccable behaviour and never gets the reward.
I hope your DD feels better soon.

@usedtobeaylis in my experience, of the numerous schools I have worked in, and from my own children's schools this is the case. All are encouraged to work hard and do well. All children regardless of their starting points, are encouraged to push themselves beyond what is expected. This thread wasn't about schools pushing students to achieve or praising or recognising those that do. It was about children ( primary aged) being upset that they didn't get a certificate when others do. And I can understand a child's naive and innocent perception of this. But ultimately, it is down to parental conversations and engagement with their child regarding expectations around certificates.

But my eldest doesn’t go ‘beyond’; it just comes easy to her. So why should she get recognition and her younger sister, not?

You say not every child can get a certificate otherwise they become meaningless but doesn’t that happen when you pretend it’s for achievement but actually you’re using it to try and reward kids for being a little less disruptive in the hope that that continues the following week when it rarely or ever does. Fine to do that but just be honest about what it is so kids like DD2 don’t sit on tenterhooks every Friday afternoon with innocent anticipation.

God there's a lot of vitriol on here which makes for unpleasant reading. I don't think labelling kids as "little shits, naughty kids" is helpful. Ideally all kids should get an acknowledgement for a strength in the year and I don't think it has to be merit based - academic. Given how many kids seem to have additional needs now, they may be rewarded from something you take for granted that your child can do standing on their head. I think some compassion is needed here. But I do agree it should be fair and everyone in the class receives something. That's the problem with UK state schools now - class sizes are too big, resources are low, and a huge rise in SEN kids without sufficient support. I'm not sure anyone is benefitting.

I personally think it’s worth letting teacher know she was in tears and feels invisible. It’s horrible to feel that way.
Yes you can praise her at home and tell her the certificates are a way to try to bribe the naughty ones but school should be recognising she’s constantly trying her best and just getting on with things (sometimes in a difficult or disruptive environment)
Dies she do extra curriculars? I’m a volunteer guide leader. We have a wide range of girls but some join as they aren’t having easy time at school. I really try to praise and give 1-1 attention which is easier outside a school setting.

@CathyBlowsBubbles That's great that one of your children is academic and gets certificates or recognition for it. I'm really sorry that your other child isn't the same and you find their differences difficult to mange. That's not the school's issue though, is it? That's about sibling rivalry and comparison between your children and how to handle their brilliant but diverse personalities and nature?

I totally agree with you and I’m an ex teacher! Average well behaved children often get overlooked in a class where there are a high proportion of kids with behaviour issues. So many teachers give the reward to little Johnny because he hasn’t told someone to fuck off for 2 days. Little Johnny accepts his award on a Friday and is back to swearing at everyone again by Monday. ‘Catch them being good’ was peddled out when I trained but it’s utter bollocks.

It seems somewhat unfair to assume well behaved children finding being good easy

There are a lot of assumptions made about these children

And a lot of excuses made for the badly behaved ones

At our school we used to have meetings about “grey children” and ensuring they were recognised

It’s an assumption that she’s found it easy though. Working hard all year, calmly getting on with things may have taken a great deal of effort. Especially if she’s been sat next to disruptive children or classroom very nosy and chaotic.

I'm a retired Scottish secondary school PTC/Faculty Head.

Some of my pupils (God bless them) confronted the Principal Teacher of Behaviour Support over the fact that one of the school bad boys had been telling first years to misbehave so that they could get treats and rewards.

"No, no! You've got that wrong! You only get the rewards for being good!"

"Aye, but ye've got to be bad first, haven't you?"

I've experienced both sides of this. DS has some behavioural issues, was often in trouble at primary school for fighting or general disruption, but he's also academically gifted. He was forever winning writer of the month/mathematician of the month, whatever, as well as star of the week and head teacher awards for "improved behaviour".

DD, bright but not standout, always well behaved, polite and conscientious, was pretty much ignored. Towards the end of Y3 I actually contacted the teacher to basically say, look, she's a great kid but she never wins anything and she's started to be really upset by it, especially as it hasn't escaped her attention that the most disruptive kids win stuff. She was given star of the week for "always trying her best" the following week, which appeased her somewhat.

This year (y4) she has a teacher who's new to the school. At the first parents' evening, in October, the teacher actually said to me unprompted, she's a really lovely girl, hard working, helpful, cheerful, kind, and that children like her often slip under the radar but she'd endure that didn't happen with her. And sure enough, it hasn't. This year she's received several awards and been given extra responsibilities (e.g. currently she's helping year 1 learn their song and dance for the end of year concert). She's come on leaps and bounds academically this year and her self esteem has never been higher. All thanks to her lovely teacher.

Naughty kids should be punished, not rewarded. As it is now many of them grow up be thugs.

@coolbreezes there were no assumptions made. It was an example of a conversation that could take place in order for the OP to help their child understand the disappointment of not receiving a certificate.

And there are no 'excuses' for poor behaviour. However, in order to understand human nature and child development it's important to acknowledge the varying elements physical, social, etc that contribute to behaviours seen in our young people.

It is unfair, but without smaller class sizes or more staff it is unavoidable.

In fact it is actually optimal.

The teachers job isn't to be fair, it's to give a whole diverse class the best outcomes. If they don't have the resources to deal perfectly with every student, then they have to allocate those resources (time, energy, attention) to where they are most effective at keeping the class on track. That inevitably ends up as the top and bottom students. If they don't give more resources to the bottom, the whole class is disrupted. For the best students, they get more resources because they are often used as examples or almost learning aids for other students. They also get rewards to try and motivate other students to emulate them.

You can try and talk to the teacher, and it will probably help a little. But the reality is that the teacher is likely already doing what they need to do, to best balance a whole class of different levels and interests.

Personally, if you know your child is like this, I wouldn't let her rely on being noticed. Give her treats yourself for doing well, and maybe get her into smaller clubs and classes outside of school where it will be easier for her to get recognition from teachers.

I have supported teachers and the education system for 30 years but I am seriously wondering if I was taken for an idiot by your posts.

As a teacher do you not understand it is about a perceptipn of fairness from the child. You say it is about parents managing expectations of their child.
I'm going to be clear to you as a teacher, from a parent of a number of children who all are high achievers.
If a child spends 14 years in classes doing what they should do and trying as hard as they can and sees that the only peer in that 14 years that is recognised in their peer group is someone who doesn't abide by the rules or achieve anything, then what their parents say about how good they are, if they actually do say, will have minimal impact.
Plenty of average achievement children don't have home validation. Have you thought about that.

The excuses for why children that follow rules and try hard but aren't brilliant shouldn't be recognised is really depressing on this thread, especially from those that educate children.
I'm leaving this thread. But you know what, all those hard working but not brilliant children who behave themselves and dont disrupt other children but don't get any recognition from the education system will be the ones that keep society functioning. All those that got a certificate for being quiet for 15 minutes, wont.
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^This
I agree with you OP.

Our kids' primary had a dinnerladies award for polite behaviour. I think it's really useful to have a range of awards that recognise different skill sets and getting different staff around the school to award them is the best way to do that because they see different aspects of the kids.

Agree it’s rubbish.

Told this story before but it cracks me up. My extremely grand friend had the same when her lovely quiet lad came out sad that once again a little tyke had got star of the week and he never did. She said briskly “we don’t need external validation in our family darling” 😀

I'll never forget a lovely teacher who saw that I'd tried so hard for the Year Prize all year (which went to the top acheiving student - always the same boy after I won it in reception - he was better at Maths than me) and made up her own "class prize" and gave me a book of cat poems, which I still have 40 years on.

Positive discrimination is a thing and it's rubbish. I agree if a kid is badly behaved 90% of the time and good 10% they should be punished not rewarded for the 10%. Praised when they are good, yes but not rewarded to the detriment of the kid who has tried really hard all year to be good. It might not have been easy for the good kid either. My son was a middle of the road child, well behaved, well liked and didn't get anything in primary. The naughty kids however got to spend Friday afternoon in forest school. I know of one who started to be naughty so they could go to!
It's different in his high school thankfully, the naughty kids get punished and don't get the good stuff whilst the good kids get recognised as they deserve to.