To think if you moved out to the countryside during Covid, you can't demand remote working?

[JacquesHarlow]

Before I get piled on, the key word here is demanding remote working based on their lifestyle choices, and therefore going against an employer's setup (mandated hybrid or full 5 day wees).

The number of people I have interacted with in the last year who feel entitled to fully remote and flexible now, never coming in, because they took a gamble five years ago and relocated outside of where the work is....is staggering.

Let me rewind for a minute -

I understand from the ACAS site etc that people are legally allowed to request flexible working. But surely employers are equally allowed to turn it down or request a modified version (you have to come in X days). So why do so many people moan about this, as if they're entitled to fully remote?

I guess the answer lies in the pandemic.

For desk based jobs such as mine and many others, we were able to work remotely in Covid-19 office lockdowns. Many people reported increased productivity. We could work variable hours, walk the dog at lunchtime, pick up the DCs and then jump on Teams calls. No need to pay expensive £6k a year season tickets, less money spend on childminding to cover the commute etc.

However these couple of years also saw all kind of people look at what their flat or house inside the M25 was worth, cash in, and then flee to all points of the compass in the UK, using their strong London pound so to speak to buy up all kinds of acreage in Frome, Weymouth, Cambridgeshire, you name it.

Where I'm struggling is how many people I've seen on here will say "I've applied to a job which is clearly stated 4 days a week in person in the office. Does anyone work here and can say how firm this is, can I demand it be remote? I live 2.5 hours away from London and it'll cost me £70 a day" etc."

Why though? Does an employer have to throw its office policy out the window every time someone who moved away from London wants the same salary and access to the job market, but won't come in on their terms anymore?

Am I being unreasonable to say that people are being unrealistic about this?

Do any of you think that we should be able to request fully remote when applying for a job, no matter what the employer's policy is? And that it is "discrimination" if they don't?

I mean, one person on here was told by a prospective employer that they need to be mindful not to have their toddler crying out too much while they're on Teams calls with clients. The job seeker then got upset in their post and said "I don't think this job is for me"...

Has COVID completely changed people's expectations that they should be able to do it all with a toddler on their lap?

AIBU?!

It's way more complicated than WFH = lower output, whatever Jacob Rees-Mogg would like us to believe.

While that may be true in many cases, my team is now able to carry double the caseload we had pre-Covid, because we've largely carried on working the way we were during it. This is evidenced by reports pulled from the client database.

Instead of schlepping halfway across the county for face-to-face appointments with clients, we now do a lot of that work over the phone. Doing a PIP application with a client over the phone can save me 3 hours in travelling time compared to seeing them in person. It saves the employer shedloads in mileage payments, too and in premises costs, as they've closed a couple of local offices that were hardly being used.

And we actually work more collaboratively now. Pre-covid, if you had an unusual case, you'd save it to discuss at the monthly team meeting, because we were all based in different offices. Now we stick a message on Teams asking if anyone has ever had a case where the circumstances were X, Y & Z and what did they do about it. Nine times out of ten, someone has and will be able to give you the precise bit of legislation you need to cite to challenge a decision.

The organisation has a "40% in the office" policy, but I suspect that's more honoured in the breach than in practice. They've sublet approx a third of the office space, and I suspect that if everyone was actually doing 40% of their hours in the office, there wouldn't be enough desks to go round.

I can see if might be different in a commercial environment (I'm in the "third sector", which always sounds to me like something from a sci-fi movie.)

Your employer will soon realise that face and why employ you and all the financial burden of a UK employee when they can outsource to india or where ever and pay much much less in wages!!!!

This is often said - mainly by people who have never employed or worked in India. I have. Even a few years back now, the saving was not huge when compared with UK employees.

There is a lot of good talent in India but it is not as cheap to employ the good people as everyone seems to think it is. Annual, expected salary increases of 10-20% are making it less cheap every year. The expectation for benefits is far higher than here in the UK: 1-2 years full pay maternity, for example. Onsite subsisided restaurants, gyms. Guaranteed yearly development and promotion in a timley fashion. Regular hiring process because there are lots of other employment options and people tend ot move roles far more often than here.

There's always one.

It's been nearly five and a half years since lockdown. Any job that's now done remotely has either been so since March 2020, before then, or after then and likely for the whole of the time it's existed.

The number of employers who have employees who could be more cheaply outsourced, are currently too dim to notice but will magically realise at some point in the future is unlikely to be very high.

Also, outsourcing to cheap labour in India? Very noughties of you!

OP, I totally agree with you. However, I run my own business so my job has been fully remote for most of my working life. That is only possible due to the nature of my work, which is creative and studio based. Whenever, I have other people working for me, they have to do so onsite at my workshop. I have had some pushback since Covid but I reiterate that this is non negotiable and any job offer depends on it. But yeah, I did notice the trend.

Totally agree. I've worked from home in some capacity since 2005! Either on occasion, or one day a week, or full time!

The cost of commuting is shocking. And the time. And that's when the trains work and are on time. When they don't, you get home in time to go to bed and start all over again.

And chlldcare should be tax deductible as it's a cost of working.

I wonder if the eventual compromise between employers and employees will be a 4 day week, but you must be in the office.

Of course it isn't, not least because good talent with the ability to speak English and work remotely have options other than the UK and our not especially high wage economy.

If my job is under threat, it's from AI, not cheaper people in India.

Sounds like a compromise which would work for men wanting Fridays on the golf course, but as ever not very helpful for mums with caring responsibilities.

I'm actually surprised nobody's cited AI as a reason why we shouldn't be wfh. It's usually happened by a couple of dozen posts in.

I just don’t see the 4 day work week ever really taking off for any reason.

The experiments that have been done are outliers and are not indicative of widespread chances for success. Our cultures are all based around the 5/2 model and I think it would be very hard to transition organically.

But it was like this before COVID - the measures were temporary - so why should people feel entitled to have their kids at their feet during Teams calls?

I definitely see this view a lot among people I know. People feel entitled to working from home and seem to forget that this never used to be the norm at all

Depend how good they are. We had a key employee do just this. The company didn't dare dismiss him.

I wasn't happy about him being a special case, but it was the only possible decision.

I think people seeking employment can 'demand' whatever they want. It's all a negotiation, and if they're worth their list of demands (so very dramatic!) then they'll get them. If they're not in high-enough demand, themselves, they likely won't.

You may think they're acting entitled, but I don't see how this is any different than negotiating a wage. Once they've been told that wfh isn't possible, they should leave it and look elsewhere, but aside from that, I don't see a problem with 'demanding' a wfh position.

Sorry I know my last post sounds goady and it isn't meant to.

I have young DCs too, but I don't feel that gives me the right to actually dictate how my hours of work should be spent , every single day.

I can request, sure. I can hope that if I have my DCs home from 15:30, that everyone is ok with them being in and out of the room while I work.

but I can't dictate what someone who is paying me is willing to endure. that's the bit that I find really odd.

Do any of you think that we should be able to request fully remote when applying for a job, no matter what the employer's policy is? And that it is "discrimination" if they don't?

Yes we should be able to ask. Always. Ultimately people looking for a job are as much entitled to interview a prospective employer as the other way around and if you don't ask, you don't get. Whether it's discrimination or not, based on either not allowing someone to make the request at all or refusing it, depends on the circumstances of the role.

Once they've been told that wfh isn't possible, they should leave it and look elsewhere

And this is what I'm seeing from WhatsApp groups. People who are told it isn't possible, then tearing their hair out that it has been "18 months and still nothing".

but aside from that, I don't see a problem with 'demanding' a wfh position.

I didn't say there was a "problem" with making a demand @fount

I did say there's a problem with moving 3 hours away from London, expecting never to commute again, and basing your whole lifestyle around what was allowed during emergency circumstances in 2020, and expecting this to continue in perpetuity.

My H has a big client with a lot of under 35s and very few with families and a lot of flexibility . The lack of productivity and ‘snap’ is incredibly noticeable from what it was. I think mumsnetters are taking it personally because ‘they’ are perfectly productive as are their partners but some people just simply aren’t if they can get away with it - and it’s very hard to monitor in certain jobs too, apart from noticing that everything takes longer and not much gets done. Problem is it would seem some of the managers are of similar ilk too because they recruit on their own image.

it does to a degree straight away 2 hours taken off travelling = extra 2 hours at the desk etc

You can ask, but increasing companies want work in the office now, so you can’t demand.

@JacquesHarlow covid proved most office roles can be completed remotely especially with tech etc it seems for some reason bosses prefer people in the office but for some myself included there are more office distractions etc

You can always request flexible (including remote) working in any job, and you can walk with your feet if it doesn’t suit you.

I moved out to the countryside many years ago (a decade before COVID). I have a very niche skillset and most jobs are in London or other big cities. I don’t want to live in a city.

Every time I’ve been hired for a role as part of negotiations over the contract, I’ve made it clear that I needed to have remote working approved and that I would only accept a job on the condition I was allowed to wfh at least part of the week. I wouldn’t have accepted the role otherwise and it’s never been refused. I would have been happy to walk away though if the arrangements didn’t suit me.

My approach is that you get the best from me when I have good work life balance. A long daily commute isn’t conducive to that. My colleagues are all over the UK so all meetings are online anyway. The office is often very empty. If you want me to be doing my best work, then get out of my way and let me do it. I’ve never had an employer not happily approve my request. Again they knew I would have walked otherwise and they were keen to hire me.

This is such an important point - the cost of everything, including rent and transport, shooting up has coincided with post-covid adjustments.

If I had to go back into the office full time I would need to drop my hours back to pre-Covid hours to accommodate the commute which would mean I lost out financially, which would mean I'd need to leave. There wouldn't be any benefit to that for anyone.

Is that really happening though? Let’s say I work 9-5 with a 2 hour commute 1 ea way. Are people generally logging in at 8 and working until 6?

I’m not sure that’s common. I would think most people would be logged in from 9-5.