To think if you moved out to the countryside during Covid, you can't demand remote working?

[JacquesHarlow]

Before I get piled on, the key word here is demanding remote working based on their lifestyle choices, and therefore going against an employer's setup (mandated hybrid or full 5 day wees).

The number of people I have interacted with in the last year who feel entitled to fully remote and flexible now, never coming in, because they took a gamble five years ago and relocated outside of where the work is....is staggering.

Let me rewind for a minute -

I understand from the ACAS site etc that people are legally allowed to request flexible working. But surely employers are equally allowed to turn it down or request a modified version (you have to come in X days). So why do so many people moan about this, as if they're entitled to fully remote?

I guess the answer lies in the pandemic.

For desk based jobs such as mine and many others, we were able to work remotely in Covid-19 office lockdowns. Many people reported increased productivity. We could work variable hours, walk the dog at lunchtime, pick up the DCs and then jump on Teams calls. No need to pay expensive £6k a year season tickets, less money spend on childminding to cover the commute etc.

However these couple of years also saw all kind of people look at what their flat or house inside the M25 was worth, cash in, and then flee to all points of the compass in the UK, using their strong London pound so to speak to buy up all kinds of acreage in Frome, Weymouth, Cambridgeshire, you name it.

Where I'm struggling is how many people I've seen on here will say "I've applied to a job which is clearly stated 4 days a week in person in the office. Does anyone work here and can say how firm this is, can I demand it be remote? I live 2.5 hours away from London and it'll cost me £70 a day" etc."

Why though? Does an employer have to throw its office policy out the window every time someone who moved away from London wants the same salary and access to the job market, but won't come in on their terms anymore?

Am I being unreasonable to say that people are being unrealistic about this?

Do any of you think that we should be able to request fully remote when applying for a job, no matter what the employer's policy is? And that it is "discrimination" if they don't?

I mean, one person on here was told by a prospective employer that they need to be mindful not to have their toddler crying out too much while they're on Teams calls with clients. The job seeker then got upset in their post and said "I don't think this job is for me"...

Has COVID completely changed people's expectations that they should be able to do it all with a toddler on their lap?

AIBU?!

Is this directly affecting you OP?

Two of the things that would help significantly with this issue is the price of train fares and childcare in UK v train fares and childcare costs in many EU countries which are subsidised. Tackling those two things alone would boost productivity.

And no one is mentioning here the savings that many employers are making by not having workers in the office every day of the week which should not be under-estimated.

Here’s how it played out in my office.

• Pre COVID- WFH 2x per week Stated days (e.g. M,F) in reality HR didn’t really monitor, managers were flexible and didn’t really care, employees used common sense. Everyone pretty happy.
• COVID- WFH 5x
• Post Covid- Hey start coming back to the office
• Post Covid + 1yr- No really start coming back to the office 3x per week.
• Post Covid + 2yr - We’re serious about this and will start tracking
• Post Covid + 2yr6mo- Ok now it’s in office 4x per week. Oh yeah and your WFH day cannot be a M or F. We’re serious about this.
• Post Covid + 3yr - Layoff/redundancy oh and firing of X amount of people for not coming into office. Very strict weekly monitoring by HR

Basically everyone had a good chance of keeping the pre Covid policy that was way more flexible and really was policed that much. Instead, the majority of employees dug their heels in and created their own problem. And yes I am counting mangers as employees here. There was a fair amount of scrambling and grumbling by those that moved away from the office and now found themselves with a 4x daily 2+ hour -one way commute in one of the worst US cities for traffic. I was also talking to our tax guy who was telling me that there were more than a few employees who had moved to a state that we didn’t have a tax agreement set up with and of those a couple resigned/were terminated and a couple had to scramble to move back.

I had an employee who was ‘failing to thrive’ in her role. As I was discussing with HR about next steps (which would usually have been a PIP) they pulled her badge swiping data. Turns out she was swiping in, wandering around the office and talking to people for a couple of hours, then leaving for the day and not returning until the next day. Verified by video. Honestly to this day I’m not even sure if she was going home to work or was just pissing off for the day. To be fair I know she wasn’t productive when she was in the office. Hence, the failure to thrive. Anyway… she earned herself an immediate termination with no chance to improve.

Now to be fair we had a CEO that would always make a comment in his monthly town hall about how he wished we could all be like the Chinese who worked 6 days a week with no WFH 🙄 so who knows if the policy would have changed without COVID. But the employees certainly didn’t make the choice hard for him by ignoring the return to office mandates.

During all of this I was classed as a remote employee so none of the policies affected me. The whole thing was fascinating to watch from afar.

Which still means there are going to be so many jobs and organisations you've no real understanding of.

Whereas I'm fucking sick of hearing about companies pointlessly wanting their employees commuting five days a week and articles in the Torygraph about all these awful "slackers" working from home.

I've worked from home for some of the week for over ten years now, yes it had to be done en masse in 2020 but it should have already been a lot more common than it was. Some companies really need to join the third decade of the 21st century.

Agree - the fact that you've noticed some posts on Mumsnet about people trying to WFH while caring for toddlers or seen some people walking their dogs on work calls isn't proof of widespread unproductivity, and conversely just because you get more done at home doesn't mean most people will do. It's all just conjecture until there is clear evidence either way.

If you are in the US you don't even get proper annual leave or maternity leave. US corporate culture was tried and failed in the UK and is definitely not wanted.

They'll have a bloody job getting us back into the office full-time - they've sold so many premises off we'd never all fit! Most of us go in first thing, go off to do client visits and then often WFH to write notes up or discharges or Teams meetings. I'm buggered if I'm going to sit in the office to sit on the chair that randomly sinks at points on a bloody Teams call.

Manager is perfectly fine with that and my performance is way above my pay grade.

But the alternative for lots of people to WFH is probably just not working at all.

I am of the people who moved to the countryside during the pandemic. Rents have gone up so much in London that I know can't afford to go back permanently, but my rent has also gone up so much here that I can no longer afford the train or a hotel in London.

I can't work from home in my industry so I've accepted that even though I'm in my mid-thirties, I'll probably never work again. I have always had severe mental health problems, which working actually tended to make better - but if work doesn't cover my housing costs, I can't afford to do it.

It’s also the ‘I want to work from home to save on day care costs’ which is baffling.

Yep. The answer, in all cases where the job could be done in multiple locations, is IT DEPENDS.

And then there are also situational factors, because some employers or employees will hold enough of the balance of power to be able to insist on something that isn't optimum for productivity. But again, this is very specific to role, sector, pay and lots of other things that it is completely pointless to generalise about.

Why so? Kids have to stay in childcare longer hours due to the commute.

An important point.

I mentioned upthread that a lot of the time when people say a remote worker is less efficient or productive, they presume the comparison is with someone of the same competence who's working the same hours, just in person. A direct equivalent. When actually, that may not be their choice at all. Not when we've got soaring NHS waiting lists, chronic conditions and unpaid caring responsibilities.

There's also usually an unspoken assumption that they don't think they'll be paying any more for this in person remote worker. Another thing that isn't necessarily the case!

Well that may be true, but the policy was global originating from our Swiss headquarters and includes our UK offices.

So whether you wanted them or not you got them (for my company anyway). So not exactly the big meanie US company. 😛

I do see your point but surely it's a good thing that people have moved out of cities and into less populated areas? I think employers should be offering more wfh or hybrid jobs. It's not feasible for employees to travel 5 days per week into the office. 2/3 days is much fairer and jobs with this on offer are bound to be more popular with more eligible applicants. The demand for housing in cities has gone crazy and it's time something was done about it.

I know people who are getting badly bitten on the arse by this now

It’s always worth asking. I know lots of people in jobs that weren’t advertised as working at home or even hybrid, but they asked for working from home and got it. A lot of companies know that to attract and retain good employees they need to be open to the idea of home working as people will just go elsewhere.

I love remote working and would never be fully office based. My role could be fully remote however I do one day per fortnight in the office

I do think you should treat remote working the same as being in the office though e.g. don’t look after your kids at the same time as you’re being paid to work

I wouldn’t ever apply for a role which clearly stated the hybrid expectation that didn’t align with my expectations. I will also cost up a roles net pay and take account of savings in fuel or wraparound care that isn’t needed. This means I’m happy to take home less if I don’t need to attend an office. I’m also happy to travel further afield if it’s just once a month in the office

I expect remote working as I know my role can be done remotely, it can save a company shed loads of money and I just don’t like sitting with people every day for the sake of it. However I choose companies who hold similar values in remote working as it makes my life easier and the tech/processes is generally much better. They set themselves up for it and life is generally more productive

Yup… she was shocked, shocked I say, when we presented her with our findings during her termination meeting.

I actually felt bad for her. I hired her and then 6mos after she was moved to another manager. I got her back a year later and found she hadn’t progressed since she had left me. So I started working with her and brought everything back to level I was at with her at the 6mo mark. 6 mo later she still hadn’t progressed. I think she was over her head and was not in the right position.

100 per cent this and agree with @DisapprovingSpaniel. Our company only this are trying to force people back to the office after nearly 5 years of dully remote and then a very flexible 1 or 2 days in office. If you had a child at start of Covid then that child is starting school now, older children have either started secondary school or even finished and gone to college. People have got married, divorced got sick or even worse died. Life has changed dramatically for everyone since pre covid, we are all alot older now, some of us who were able to commute long hours are not physically able to anymore. Life has got a whole lot more expensive. Where i live, the main motorway has the most cars using it ever now up over 500k since 2019. My commute to where i work was 1 hour and a quarter pre covid - if i left at 7, if i leave at 7 now its 2 hours. You have to leave at half 5 to do it in an hour and a quarter now. One of our staff here unfortunately crashed on her way home, more accidents are happening. Public transport HAS NOT improved at all. House prices have escalated and so have rent- rentals are more scarce. Some companies here that have tried to increase office days have had to change as they are not getting the staff. One of the largest recruitment agencies here have released a report showing that that people are turning down jobs if they are not offering good flexibility remote working options. Here we are at full employment so filling jobs is getting hard. Alot of companies are also doing hidden remote work agreements in order to keep their staff aswell. Covid had a huge impact on way we work, it will never go back the way it was. Alot has changed and technology has advanced as well

i think that if you are confident that your job can be done 100% from home and that there is no added value to going into the office to see people face to face occasionally then I would be VERY worried. Your employer will soon realise that fact and why employ you and all the financial burden of a UK employee when they can outsource to india or where ever and pay much much less in wages!!!!

My personal opinion on this… I think a lot of companies had decent WFH policies pre COVID. The pendulum swung to the employee side during COVID and the couple of years post. Now the pendulum is swinging way to the employer’s side and will continue to do so for a while more.

I do think it will eventually get back to the middle and both sides will be more reasonable.