To think if you moved out to the countryside during Covid, you can't demand remote working?

[JacquesHarlow]

Before I get piled on, the key word here is demanding remote working based on their lifestyle choices, and therefore going against an employer's setup (mandated hybrid or full 5 day wees).

The number of people I have interacted with in the last year who feel entitled to fully remote and flexible now, never coming in, because they took a gamble five years ago and relocated outside of where the work is....is staggering.

Let me rewind for a minute -

I understand from the ACAS site etc that people are legally allowed to request flexible working. But surely employers are equally allowed to turn it down or request a modified version (you have to come in X days). So why do so many people moan about this, as if they're entitled to fully remote?

I guess the answer lies in the pandemic.

For desk based jobs such as mine and many others, we were able to work remotely in Covid-19 office lockdowns. Many people reported increased productivity. We could work variable hours, walk the dog at lunchtime, pick up the DCs and then jump on Teams calls. No need to pay expensive £6k a year season tickets, less money spend on childminding to cover the commute etc.

However these couple of years also saw all kind of people look at what their flat or house inside the M25 was worth, cash in, and then flee to all points of the compass in the UK, using their strong London pound so to speak to buy up all kinds of acreage in Frome, Weymouth, Cambridgeshire, you name it.

Where I'm struggling is how many people I've seen on here will say "I've applied to a job which is clearly stated 4 days a week in person in the office. Does anyone work here and can say how firm this is, can I demand it be remote? I live 2.5 hours away from London and it'll cost me £70 a day" etc."

Why though? Does an employer have to throw its office policy out the window every time someone who moved away from London wants the same salary and access to the job market, but won't come in on their terms anymore?

Am I being unreasonable to say that people are being unrealistic about this?

Do any of you think that we should be able to request fully remote when applying for a job, no matter what the employer's policy is? And that it is "discrimination" if they don't?

I mean, one person on here was told by a prospective employer that they need to be mindful not to have their toddler crying out too much while they're on Teams calls with clients. The job seeker then got upset in their post and said "I don't think this job is for me"...

Has COVID completely changed people's expectations that they should be able to do it all with a toddler on their lap?

AIBU?!

Anyone can ask. Nobody is entitled to it.

Expecting to manage nearly every job with a baby or toddler at home is ridiculous. Obviously there are occasional job designs where this works, but few.

It is evidence based and research proven that the most flexible employers get and keep the best staff, and vice versa. Flexibility of role, skill, training, hours, etc. Some jobs which are not customer facing (including by phone or teams etc) can be flexible to include evenings and can be measured by outcomes and outputs, rather than time in.

That said, I’m not a supporter of employees taking the piss. Anyway, the majority do not.

Do any of you think that we should be able to request fully remote when applying for a job, no matter what the employer's policy is? And that it is "discrimination" if they don't?

You can request whatever you like. If the company wants you that badly, they'll give you the conditions you want. If you're not so desirable that you can get special circumstances, then they won't.

I have found, though, that a lot of places with a lot of remote and flexible working allowances don't make this known in the job adverts (possibly to deter pisstakers) so it is worth looking into.

The issue put more bluntly is that as people have spread themselves around the UK, property values in central London (offices, retail etc.) and its surrounds is falling, there are fewer office workers for central businesses to sell to. Experts say it’s likely there will be a UK property crash, however this time we don’t have the growth/productivity to fall back on, our jobs market is dire at the moment with highly stagnated wages across many sectors. Although many were happy to see workers rights enhanced, there has been a surge of roles advertised as temp to perm contracts, I presume to get around the new legislation. Lots has been made of levelling up, most Londoners we know who’ve legged it think that moving somewhere they can buy a large detached house, whilst London remains their piggy bank, is some sort of low-level rebellion. With the current drive across many large corporations to get people back to their desks, it remains to be seen if companies are likely to spread the wealth across the UK and HQ themselves in other places, if not it feels like remote working will be slowly reset to 4 days in office / 1 from home, which has been acceptable in most settings for donkeys of years.

With my current employer, it is in my contract. I am well aware I might not be able to find a job with the same conditions.

It’s part of why I am so loyal.

Most employers know the real truth - most employees are more productive in the office. Some people are more productive at home, there’s outliers but most aren’t and there’s a disconnect because people believe the opposite.

a Quick Look at Mumsnet illustrates the issue - people think they can save on childcare, you can’t work and care for kids under about 8, they need parenting and even older ones disturb you

It's a question of the balance of power between employers and employees. That's all.

I think people are taking the piss.

im in a minority but imo an office job is an office job and besides emergencies you should be at your desk in your office.

I agree with you @JacquesHarlow I work in a job which requires in person at scheduled times, but can be flexible in other ways. However, the team works best when we are all present, in person and can collaborate more quickly, more creatively and more productively in person.

But I have colleagues who are not only trying to maintain much more hybrid modes by living 2 hours away - some are living on other continents, and moaning about being expected to live in England 9 months of the year ...

Yep! The rest is hot takes, frequently badly informed.

Public sector are more in the office than most. Generally 60%.

In answer to OP’s question - no you aren’t remotely unreasonable.

Why people assumed WFH was forever and moved out of London - as you say, taking London salaries and paying countryside prices. Not to mention the lovely surroundings .

Its very annoying when you did what you were meant to do - stayed within easy travel distance, able to come into the office much of the time etc - and then people who just took it upon themselves to move now say “oh but I live so far away” - you decided to move there!

My dh has been job hunting. The majority of jobs now state hybrid working. Very few are fully remote nowadays.

I wonder if we wont see more remote working in the public sector as an austerity measure. Which is what kicked it all off in the 2010s. Premises are expensive.

I suspect you’re at least partially right - that the “I get sooooo much more done at home” crowd aren’t being 100% honest, or kidding themselves.

All of this.

Anyone can ask. The only people that could 'demand' would be someone in SUCH a specialist role they know that only they could do it.

Supply and demand is a thing.

But equally, I wonder why any employer would want to limit the pool of people they recruit from to people who want to commute in to an office every day if there is no real reason to in the role.

Of course pretending to work whilst looking after small dc is never acceptable.

Covid was 4 years ago now so it's 5.5 years since the last 'normal office working period'!

If your work allowed you to wfh during the pandemic but then asked you to return to the office as soon as it was over but you'd moved in that time and no longer wanted to. Fair enough, you'd been daft and would have to have found another job.

But if your work allowed you to wfh during the pandemic and then continued to allow if for the years that have gone by since - then it's not unreasonable to have shaped your life around those recent years and moved away from the office.

An employer is daft to allow a practise to become normal for more then 5 years and then try to change it claiming it was 'just' for the pandemic.

I'm always amazed that anyone feels competent to generalise about what's more productive in work. There are so many sectors, so many jobs, so many people. Nobody could possibly be familiar with enough of it for their guess to mean anything.

I actually had more WFH before covid than now because people didn’t have their knickers in a twist about it then!

asking is fine, I’ve only ever worked remote and have asked this on occasions and it has paid off as they’ve been open to it. Getting hired/hiring is basically the negotiation of what each party wants. And that’s what most people will be doing essentially asking, just this is a none negotiable for me does it work for you? They can’t be demanding to be hired and have X, they’re just saying they won’t flex on wfh.