Gender swap situation

[TenThousandYears]

I know you're all probably fed up hearing about this subject...I just need to vent.

DD has been friends with "Sally" for 10 years. (Both 14) Since nursery. In the last few months Sally has decided to change gender and now wants to be called " Ron"

DD just can't wrap her head around this. If she slips up, she gets nasty looks from "Ron" and so she's treading on eggshells.

Ron's brother still refers to Ron as Sally so DD is very confused by it all.

I'm on DDs side. Personally, I would hate to be in her shoes right now. I think if you meet someone and are introduced to them as whomever then that's easier to accept than having to change names and pronouns of someone you've been friends with for 10 years. On TV shows people just accept this straight away and move on but I'm not convinced that it's really that easy.

I also think 14 is a bit young for these changes but that's just my personal opinion.

Are me and my child horrible people for not being able to accept this right away?

Dd1 had this a lot around that age. We went with being respectful and thinking of it as you would a nickname - Sally wants to be called Ron so it’s the same as her saying I want to be Sal - it’s a preferred name. Teens love to be dramatic, my rule has always been don’t feed the drama.

dd is now 17 and only one friend remains he /him but with a vagina… now wears pink, sparkles and flowers and I wonder if “he” doesn’t know how to pull back after 6 years of being Jim.

@Loungingbutnotforlong

"but surely we are all gender non-conforming?"

Nope. Most people have a gender identity which is concomitant with their biological sex, though that gender identity will be shaped in some capacity by the culture of the society in which they're raised.

"The thing I dislike about the transgender movement is the insistence it has on enforcing gender ‘norms’ "

Except it doesn't. That's just something you've made up. It doesn't 'insist' that a masculine presenting woman is actually a man. But if someone who is a biological female identifies as a male they accept that person on their own terms - because it's a movement that's rooted in acceptance of human individuality.

"and trying to say that if you don’t fit a gender norm then you must be the opposite sex"

It doesn't say that either. That's also something you've made up.

So you want her to be a shitty friend because of her own beliefs? ok ...

Most people do not have a gender identity, most people didn't even know what that was until ten minutes ago.

Look, I am as gender critical as they come and I think the trans thing is a load of absolute nonsense. But that issue is with society; it isn’t with individuals.

It’s like the threads on here where people proudly proclaim their child has a gender non conforming teacher or TA and say ‘but that is a man mummy!’ Yes, they are. It’s also true that I am fat but it’s bloody rude to say so and that’s what needs to be taught.

We all learn to keep our mouths shut sometimes for the sake of harmony, respect and appropriateness. If your DD can’t do that then she can lose all her mates. Or she can accept someone else’s preference, can privately think it’s ridiculous (like I think some of my friends have terrible dress sense or haircuts) and keep those thoughts to herself.

I take it you're referring to Sally/Ron here.

Here's that old #nodebate that done so much to expose the bullying tactics of transactivism. Bet even George Orwell didn't imagine this level of deception and mangling the truth when he wrote:

"The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command"

No the other child, the one making the unreasonable demands and glaring when the OP's child calls her the name she's always known her by by mistake is the shitty friend.

You've got this the wrong way round.

Nonsense - most people do not have a gender identity - let alone one 'concomitant with their sex'

Because gender is entirely socially imposed.

plenty of masculine presenting women and girls, or more feminine boys and men are told they're just self-hating trans people, and trans identified males frequently use feminine gender-norms to justify why/how they must really be women. Gender Norms are absolutely re-enforced by the trans movement.

Accepting human individuality totally excludes the concept of gender. Gender is an oppressive hierarchy, used to bully people who don't conform - be that to traditional gender norms of their sex (for social conservatives), or of the opposite sex (for trans idherents)

You're not as 'gender critical as they come' if you think that a child should be compelled to lie about the sex of another person.

I could’ve written your post as I feel the same.

OP if your DD wants to keep the friendship, she should use ‘Ron’ and try to use the correct pronouns but of course she can believe what she wants.

If Ron isn’t that close a friend, then now is a good time for her to step away from the friendship but it could affect her relationships with the others in the group.

So true. My child has told me she’s called her teacher Mum a few times now. It would never be Dad 🤣

And yes we had a teacher get married and we all kept calling her old name for ages by mistake. And actually my daughter’s teacher got married two years ago and everyone and again I’ll call her Miss X. But wouldn’t call her Mr!

There’s so much of this about in schools. I can tell you that nearly all these YP have other issues & are seeking attention/validation through claiming to be a different gender. It’s very sad.

There’s starting to be more pushback from both peers & staff though. Honestly, I’d advise her to back away & not feed into the drama.

OK, but, if keeping silent causes harm, then it's an issue.

Taking the fat example - when I was very fat, it was absolutely essential that the cabin crew gave me a seat-belt extender, for my own safety.

And had I been so fat that I was impinging on the people next to me, then it would be fair enough for them to be upset about that on a 12 hour flight. It would be rude of me to expect them to just put up with it.

Seems like it would be best for OPs child to just stop being friends with Ron and concentrate on other kids in the friendship group. It sounds like a load of hassle. Don’t worry too much about it. It’s Rons loss.

They seem to have outgrown the sleepover stage now so that's not an issue. DD intends on treating "Ron" the same way she always has. Same conversations etc. but she is very cautious about using the wrong name or pronoun in case of offence etc, so just doesn't use them. a few teachers have slipped up too but it's all very fresh for them too.

The Cass review shows that this is something that impacts otherwise vulnerable children.

Many of them are autistic, many of them are gay and struggling with their sexuality and there is also a high incidence of children in care who identify as trans.

Ditto. My daughter is known as Maddie by her primary school friends but chose to be known as Madeleine when she went to secondary school. She doesn't shoot evils at her secondary school friends if they call her Maddie. *

People rarely call each other by name / third person pronouns to their face so it sounds like SallyRon is making this into a stick to beat people rather than anything else.

*Name changed but principle is the same.

Why is it always only the one side of the belief ideology who need to learn to shut up and accept whatever they're told, to avoid disharmony and awkwardness?

Why is it never expected that people like Sally might think that she 'feels like a boy', but nevertheless accept that she IS a girl (biologically and in reality), so maybe she could not introduce any deliberate disharmony by unnaturally compelling other people's speech?

Why isn't your DD using the new name and pronoun though?

It's not that hard

It isn’t lying. Lying is deliberately trying to mislead or hoodwink. This instance is more going along with someone’s personal preference for the sake of tact.

Being honest in this situation will lose you all your friends and also will not actually do anything good! No one will say ‘well hold on, lily actually has a good point! Sally is not a boy!’ They will all just align themselves and bitch about how rude she is. So yeah - if that’s what the OP wants for her DD, go for it

It was just a name I used. Not using real names for obvious reasons.

Teachers changing names due to marriage is nothing like changing pronouns or nicknames. Also, if you accidentally call Mrs Taylor Miss Smith, Mrs Taylor isn’t going to get upset and raise a complaint for mistitling.
It’s the insecurity and attention that goes with the pronouns and identity that is the problem. If someone accidentally called me Sir or he, I literally wouldn’t care because I know what I am.

No no child should be compelled to go along with personal preference. Where does that end?

There are girls in secondary schools compelled to change with boys (who say they are girls) because of this kind of nonsense. They are called bigots for objecting and wanting boundaries away from all male people.

OP your post makes no sense and you contradict yourself.

First you say your DD is getting dirty looks from Ron for calling him Sally / her.

Then you say she's not using any pronouns or names at all.

Are you just a goady fucker who made this up then?

If not which is it cos both can't be true.

It's not that hard to just call them Ron, is it. Teens change their names (and are sensitive about it) all the time.