Gender swap situation

[TenThousandYears]

I know you're all probably fed up hearing about this subject...I just need to vent.

DD has been friends with "Sally" for 10 years. (Both 14) Since nursery. In the last few months Sally has decided to change gender and now wants to be called " Ron"

DD just can't wrap her head around this. If she slips up, she gets nasty looks from "Ron" and so she's treading on eggshells.

Ron's brother still refers to Ron as Sally so DD is very confused by it all.

I'm on DDs side. Personally, I would hate to be in her shoes right now. I think if you meet someone and are introduced to them as whomever then that's easier to accept than having to change names and pronouns of someone you've been friends with for 10 years. On TV shows people just accept this straight away and move on but I'm not convinced that it's really that easy.

I also think 14 is a bit young for these changes but that's just my personal opinion.

Are me and my child horrible people for not being able to accept this right away?

Please go away and be boring there instead.

OP Could your DD have a new name? Maybe, "Princess Sparkly Unicorn Rider" or something else as ridiculous, and insist on it at all times from Ron?

so you can’t define it?

We live as women, because we are women.
How do men, who are men, live as women?

This “compelling people” to say x, y, z is a complete nonsence. You can think whatever you want within the privacy of your own head. When it comes to what you say - well in terms of the law and expressing your opinions there’s free speech of course, as there should be, within certain legal parameters . When it comes to basic , human decency , you address people personally using language that is respectful to the person. This is a basic and universal principle.

so let’s leave this “compelled language” childishness please.

When it comes to the allocation of public services and facilities, there is a conversation to be had, but it can’t possibly take place on remotely reasonable terms when people have the kinds of attitudes towards trans people, and the total lack of understanding of trans experience, expressed on this and other mumsnet threads.

Even though 'Ron' is bullying her?

So how do men live as women?

Oh, and to pick up on your response to my comment that other people recognise us as women and treat us differently from men. You draw a parallel there with the TW experience because TW 'recognise THEMSELVES as women' and that influences how they act, as though this is what I was saying. It was not.
For a woman, being recognised as the female sex begins at birth and continues whether we like it or not. People treat us as 'not men' and this is much more often than not to our detriment. The stereotypical behaviour patterns you observe have been imposed and taught to us because other people see us as women (because we are). Which is the opposite to what you're describing, which is the deliberate adopting of behaviour patterns you associate with women because you want people to recognise you in the way you percieve yourself.

Requiring wrong sex pronouns is compelled speech. You know that.

Expecting to be referred to as a woman when you're not is also compelled speech. You know that too.

What you'll find on MN threads is refusal to pretend that men can become women. That is all. If people can't live in reality, that is their problem to deal with, no anyone else's.

'Recognising yourself as a woman' doesn't mean you actually are a woman.

Can you understand the female experience of needing and wanting single sex spaces?

Can you understand that requiring others to deny reality is compelled speech.

Language is fundamental for a civilized society. Words have defined meanings.

you still can’t define “living as a woman”

I can 'recognise myself' as royalty. It's a shame I can't compel the rest of the world to affirm that for me, though.

I would hope the therapist will give Sally/Ron some support to maintain existing friendships. You can't just dump a whole new you on your friends and then get angry when their image still includes the old you. You have to be as kind and understanding to your old friends as you want them to be to you.

Sally/Ron's new school friends may get a lot of fun out of affirming Sally/Ron's new identity. It's interesting and fashionable and it's no skin off their nose, they have no shared history to lose. Unfortunately that could be very sad for Sally/Ron if s/he ever changes her mind and has lost DD's friendship and her new friendships are all conditional on this new identity.

Which doesn't help your DD. Maybe DD should be looking to build up other friendships and interests outside school and be polite but keep a safe distance while this plays out.

TW simply want to live their lives within their own experience . In a manner that is comfortable, tolerable and authentic for them.

And why is engaging in a complicated pretendy fantasy which involves becoming a medical patient with complex needs and negotiating difficult social relationships and legal structures which keep constantly reminding you that it all is really only a pretendy fantasy, any better for “the person” than just accepting that you’re not a woman?

@Tandora — undoubtedly some men “transition” because it’s a sexual fetish, rather than anything to do with “dysphoria” or believing they’re born in the wrong body or whatnot. How do these men fit into your schema? Do we all have to use “language respectful to the person” towards men acting out a sexual fetish in public?

There needs to be understanding on both sides here.
You should always refer to someone as what they ask to be referred to. It's really common for kids to change to a nickname or slightly different version of their name as they get older, and its very common for family to call someone by their original name. Eg Samantha with your family, Sam with your friends. It's not OK to ignore this. It doesn't matter if you agree with it or understand it or not.

The person changing their name needs to understand that its quite a tricky habit to break and as long as its not done in a judgemental way or deliberately, there needs to be some understanding that it takes a while to get used to the new name

This is silly. 'Compelled speech' in these sorts of contexts is generally taken to mean, 'I object to being strong-armed into calling someone I clearly know is male, she/her' or vice versa. Whereas calling your teacher 'Mrs Smith' rather than Debbie if you know her first name, is a polite societal convention and Mrs Smith IS one of the ways she's known by. No falsehood there, just a school rule/politeness. Calling a female child with male pronouns, or vv, is rather different.

Nope.
Nobody is forced to indulge someone else's fantasy. 🤔

It absolutely is compelled because there is the fear of the unacceptable reaction when you 'get it wrong'. Plus it's often accompanied by a desire to treat someone differently despite being told they are 'still the same person'. They are but the terms of the relationship have been changed. If they become conditional on anything the balance of power has changed - it's no longer an equal relationship.

It also affects your own identity. If are related to someone, that changes the context in conversations. You relate to others based on the make of your family unit. People ask you if you have brothers/sisters or have sons/daughters to relate.

As a friend at school it will affect dynamics in other ways which might be hard to handle. There's the pressure to not just affirm but also to be the champion. And if you don't believe it you can't fake it.

It is not a neutral act.

We need to keep saying this over and over again.

The political bods on here need to remember that OP has said this is her daughter's whole friendship group.

If her daughter goes against the group, it's all of her friends against her.

She's got to be pragmatic. Regardless of her personal beliefs, standing up to this would mean losing all of her school friends in a small school with few others her age.

I appreciate we all have differing opinions on this but asking a teenager to take a stand against her whole social network isn't going to happen. This isn't a theoretical situation. It's her life.

Yeah but she's got two gay daughters, so 🤷🏻‍♂️

So one is a polite social convention when you call someone by the term they prefer, and the other is compelled speech where you're being strong-armed into calling someone by the term they prefer.

Thanks for clarifying!

It's not just about "getting used to it". There is a whole emotional dimension for everyone involved, not just the individual who is making the change. It can be painful for other people who are expected to make that change. At present UK society (including many schools and most of the advice that is given to schools) has swung to a point where we label all those feelings "transphobic" and dismiss or condemn them and we easily condemn anyone who expresses them as a bully or transphobe. That's not right either and that's part of the dilemma that the OP's DD has to face.

One is a name change specific to a person, names are chosen and can be changed. The other is asking people to deny reality, sex is immutable not chosen can’t be changed,

its not hard to understand the difference.

Sure, the difference is very clear - one is an example of compelled speech that you're comfortable with, and the other is new and icky.

I don't think anyone is advocating 'taking a stand' necessarily. Rather backing away and distancing herself from a friendship that has become uncomfortable and problematic for her.

Surely you would not advocate the OP's daughter to maintain this friendship on terms that make her feel she's walking on eggshells the whole time?

Not 'icky'. A false representation of reality.