To wonder how smart do you actually have to be for some professions?

[Jigaliga]

Inspired by a comment on another thread...

Do you really have to be genuinely intelligent to be a doctor, lawyer, etc? Or is it just putting in the grind and a good education?

I guess to be an academic you would have to be intelligent. To be a barrister too, but maybe not to be a solicitor? What about accountants?

Definitely thick and unintelligent.

And corrupt to boot. Deadly combination.

In relation to lawyers, it also depends on the type of law. Eg tax solicitor in a magic circle firm is a very different skill set to, say, real estate in a high street firm, or a criminal barrister. Some fields appeal more to academic book types, specialising in black letter law. Others are better suited to those who enjoy more client facing, or juggling multiple competing deadlines. It's a broad church.

I work in healthcare and have worked with really stupid doctors. Stupid in a myriad of ways not isolated to intelligence.

They're excellent at rote learning but completely unable to think outside the box.

They're linear - Can I medicate it, cut it off/out or send it to someone else to deal with.

Ask them to think for themselves about a cluster of symptoms and they come up with a list of referrals per each symptom rather than looking for root cause. First line of care is pharmaceuticals. It’s depressing.

That’s true. Most of them just lie about their credentials. See Rachel from accounts the business secretary whose name probably no one knows.

Sorry but I disagree completely. You can’t buy the ability to do exams or job applications.

I have never hired anyone because of their senior school and university is a great leveller. The ‘gap’ in business for example isn’t there after uni.

A lot of kids in private school are there because they were struggling in mainstream and their parents or the council put them there because of it (I’m not talking about Eton for example as that is completely different). I have been to both and believe me private schools aren’t better.

I work with tons of solicitors (including lots at large prestigious firms) and a lot of it is remarkably repetitive and mainly just involves reading a massive amount of material very very fast and being willing to put in long hours.

There are some who are exceptionally bright but there are lots whom I would class as very normal intelligence wise but hard working.

Barristers I've come across (mainly KCs) have largely been scarily intelligent, just incredibly quick to comprehend and analyse.

Its like any job - there will be brilliant ones and there will be some who have simply grafted their arse off.

There's many threads were the posters have a professional job, earn six figures, yet wonder if they'd be better off on benefits. They don't seem to understand that spending money is different from not having enough and that they too, could do a weekly shop at farmfoods/iceland. So you can have a well qualified job, but be thick, going off the threads on here.

Based on the fact that I know a lot of people in these professions I think you have to be above average intelligence. You don’t need to be brilliantly clever. That will only get you so far though and you have to work hard and either be utterly determined or have a reasonably good education. The most successful people I know are also extremely good at communicating and networking.

Sorry but I disagree completely. You can’t buy the ability to do exams or job applications

To a degree, you can. No, you can't take a child with learning difficulties and get them to top grades, but you can take a child at the upper end of average and push them to exceptional grades.

Take the average B grade student and put them into a school with small classes, first rate teachers, the best facilities, and add in supportive parents doing lots at home, and you will be getting As and A*s in no time.

When I read sweeping generalisations like this it always makes me think ‘why aren’t you doing it then?, but then I realise they don’t actually know what the job entails. Like people who think teaching is a cushy number because you get lots of holidays.

Great comment on a post about intelligence.

If, as you believe:

1. private schools aren’t better than state schools
2. being wealthy (or having wealthy parents doesn’t “buy” the ability to pass exams)
3. connections/nepotism aren’t the reason people succeed

How do you explain the proven fact that wealthy, privately educated individuals are far more professionally successful? All just a coincidence, eh?

And of course you can buy the ability to pass exams and pass interviews. Do you think private tutors and interview coaches get paid for nothing? Do you really think they make no difference? Do you honestly believe that a 16yo who works 20 hours a week will do as well in their GCSEs as a 16yo who doesn’t need to work? Or a university student who doesn’t need to work is just as strained for study time as one who does? Do you think the purchasing of revision guides and flash cards and online memberships plays no role in exam grades? Do you not realise that in many professions (law and accounting, as two examples) rich students pay people to write their lengthy application essays?

Of course these advantages are bought. You can’t polish a turd but you can encrust one with diamonds.

I have encountered a few pretty unintelligent solicitors in my career - they all were there because of family connections that meant they could bring clients to the firm
a bright junior would that all their hard work would just go out in that partner's name.

The clients most have been pretty stupid too to chose someone who "talks like me and looks like me" over people who actually knew what they were talking about.

If you've only encountered KCs you can't really generalise about the barrister profession as a whole.
I think its an open secret that there are some not remotely bright or brilliant barristers in the less well paid areas of law. (as well as some brilliant ones)

@pumicepumy You won’t get through some doors at all, from any background, unless you are really good and a top candidate. My DD is a barrister. I’ve met quite a few of her barrister friends from a variety f backgrounds. Not one would have needed tutors. Not one isn’t a very bright engaged young person. Plenty have not had privileged upbringing but are very clear about what they want and the best way to get it. None have average intelligence and all are carving successful careers in a variety of legal practices. It’s just so lazy to say they are all privileged. They are not but they do have way above average intelligence and abilities many don’t have. Including the willingness to do a long training and work very hard.

Married to a doc and have a lot in my social circle.

Yep, you have to be genuinely intelligent. Some of the stuff they were studying for exams I couldn't even understand the question, and I'm not stupid either. But the people who go onto be doctors are next level smart. You have to be to retain, understand and synthesise the volume and complexity of info they need to do their job well. They have to be excellent at subjects a lot of people struggle with (maths, chemistry, some physics) as well. For a lot of people it doesn't matter how hard they work, they would never be smart enough to meet the standard.

I suppose it depends on how one defines intelligence 🤷‍♀️

IQ level?
Exam grades?
Ability to debate / discuss without resorting to a slanging match?
Ability to think on one’s feet? For example I’d say a lot of stand up comedians are intelligent as they’re so obviously quick witted.

It’s complicated. I know several people who became doctors because they have superb memories. Does that mean they are intelligent? No it doesn’t, it means they have a good / photographic memory.

Often barristers are extremely intelligent because they have to interpret and work on the information they have, to a certain end. Not simply regurgitate it.

Etc

So in answer to the OP question, it depends.

In my experience - knowing quite a few solicitors, etc - it's a combination of brains, connections and working hard. A family member has just started their first job in a law firm (a decent one with several branches). They did very well in their school exams and degree (a first), but struggled after their law exams to get a training contract for various reasons and took them a while after that to get their first proper job. They just didn't have the contacts in the law world, but in the end a family member helped them out with an introduction to a solicitor he knew. If not for that connection, he would probably still be looking (was only a few months ago).

As for my DCs, both did v well at school and probably could;ve gone in to most careers if they put their mind to it (apart from languages as no aptitude!). One has just finished uni in a subject that although they loved, is going to be very hard to get work in as it's so competitive - they are already working in customer service so they have money live on while they work out their next steps. They always said they 'had a good memory' which is why they did well in exams, but I don't buy that's the only reason. I have a good memory as well but I didn't do particularly well at school/uni because I just haven't got the brains (but I do have common sense!).

Other DC is still at uni doing a very tough degree but will come out with a high classification so the world should really be his oyster, I am worried about the recruitment process for him as he is very anxious, but also very peronsanable (he gets p/t jobs easily for example).He did very well at school academically as well, but common sense is a bit lacking sometimes.

We don't really have masses of connections, DH knows a lot of people through his work and networking, but not really anyone that would be useful for DCs' careers. We are a regular middle-class family - DCs went to good state schools and we were involved in their education so they do have that advantage I suppose.

Not more so. Equal to and helpful though.

Should be at all surprised by the split on this thread?

50% “I work in this profession and many are thick as a post but hugely privileged”

50% “DD/DS/DH works in this profession and is brilliantly intelligent and not at all advantaged by her/his privileged upbringing”

It is hard, at least nowadays, to get into medicine without being naturally intelligent. You can indeed prepare hard for the exams, but just to be able to train yourself hard, you have to be at a certain level of intelligence. I believe only something like 10% will get the results that qualifies them for an interview.

Even if they've managed to pass by hard work only, they still have to get through the interviews. You can practice for these too, but the interviewers will see eight through it. Maybe a very small percentage will get through with only hard work and extreme good memory, but that alone could then qualified at being quite intelligent anyway. Of course, they then still have to pass the strident exams through the 5 years of medical school!

There are loads of different types of accountants, and loads of ways into the profession. If you want to be qualified you'll need to be able to do exams under pressure, but it's not rocket science. It's not all Big4 firms, lots of accountants train and work in industry where it's not about privelege and upbringing, and you can work your way up through the qualifications to a good job and good salary. From an industry perspective I think that competence and cop-on are the most important qualities - and these do not always come with intelligence!

Also there are many different types of solicitor. Those who earn £120,000 immediately after qualifying and those who earn £40,000 as a duty solicitor in a town somewhere. The Sunday Times looked at duty solicitors at Swindon Magistrates. No high earners there.

Privilege and connections are more important that smart
I agree that this os definitely not the case for medicine any longer. Some schools do favour exams results over interviews, but it is still going to be hard to get in if you are not in the top 10% of smart from an IQ perspective and can show some high level of emotional intelligence.

I suspect some of it is also genetic. The people who can afford that privilege often due so by virtue of their own economic success.

The heavily tutored A grade GCSE student often can't quite keep up at A Level, the heavily tutored/supported A Level student often sinks at university when let off the leash.

It's about far more than that.

People keep talking about six figure salaries - people at the top of law, accountancy, industry, successful business owners, are earning more than £500k nowadays.

Well obviously you have to be intelligent to be a,Dr ,people who are not intelligent enough can work hard 24/7 and never be able to pass the exams.