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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To wonder how smart do you actually have to be for some professions?

282 replies

Jigaliga · 23/06/2025 06:22

Inspired by a comment on another thread...

Do you really have to be genuinely intelligent to be a doctor, lawyer, etc? Or is it just putting in the grind and a good education?

I guess to be an academic you would have to be intelligent. To be a barrister too, but maybe not to be a solicitor? What about accountants?

OP posts:
Gagagardener · 23/06/2025 07:23

I thought the question was going to be about dress codes and general personal presentation! Disappointed, actually.

pumicepumy · 23/06/2025 07:24

In my experience of these professions, if you’ve had a privileged upbringing (private school or very good state school, private tutoring, wealthy parents, etc), it’s very easy to do these things with roughly average intelligence. It’s very easy to buy the ability to do exams, and very easy to buy the ability to do applications and interviews.

If you’ve not had a remotely privileged upbringing (care leaver, poor state school, etc) then you need to be extremely intelligent to overcome the huge gap in advantage.

I agree with this, the people I know from a deprived background who have done very well are fiercely intelligent & driven.

Frozo · 23/06/2025 07:24

Theunamedcat · 23/06/2025 07:21

Honestly I've come across some people so fucking incompetent my complaint stated if I did my minimum wage job this poorly I wouldn't have one

Examples would include getting a sen setting for ds
Requirements are for a non aggressive (important!) Autistic child with a learning delay local school is a must due to other issues
Offered a school thirty miles away specifically coded for violent and aggressive children (I said no)
Offered a school 20 miles away for children who cannot access education (ones that don't have much of a chance in education farm based play no real education) (I said no)
Ignored for 6 months (I complained)
Offered mainstream (we all said no)
Another complaint (she went on holiday)
Upon her return we all got very specific LOCAL sen school education based she proceeds to consult with education based sen schools 30 miles away 20 miles away fuck knows how far away I said no I literally have one down the road his friends are all going too perfect for him she came back with another thirty miles away FUCKS SAKE more complaints she went on holiday ds has no school place still and she is just fucking around she then comes back and names a school presents it too me job done.....im looking at it before I approve anything I drive up the school is great they said she should have consulted with them 12 months prior because they had spaces however they can squeeze him in and think he will be a good fit he was and is getting on great it's not local though so they have to pay for transport

Just one example of many on how the fuck do you get and KEEP your very well paid job

I’m confused - this sounds like a job done by someone on a pretty low wage for the council. Which high paid job is this?

GnomeDavid · 23/06/2025 07:25

I think it was possibly my comment on the PA/EA thread. I think the type of doctor is important, as well as the experience. I have worked closely with mainly psychiatrists in my working life, and yes they all tended to be very intelligent, not just book smart and memorising facts but that rational, clinical decision making side. It was brilliant to watch seven or so very bright psychiatrists debate someone’s capacity or their likely diagnosis. Like watching tennis, with case law and quotations from legal frameworks thrown back and forth.
That is not to say they were all lovely people, or good wives and husbands, or reliable, or hard working in their personal lives. But they were all whip smart and would find a civilian like me, with only one degree, tedious I think. I could never keep up.
GP’s I’ve met through work, I think they’re clever too but perhaps I haven’t seen enough of their clinical decision making in action to form an opinion. We have a lot of young med students in my hospital and they are obviously very bright but I’m so glad many more of them have regional accents and seem to have attended normal schools these days.

InsomniacSloth · 23/06/2025 07:27

Frozo · 23/06/2025 06:48

I’m not sure why you think an academic needs to be any smarter than a doctor or a lawyer?

I also don’t know why you think a barrister needs to be any smarter than a solicitor?

Why do you think these things?

In my experience of these professions, if you’ve had a privileged upbringing (private school or very good state school, private tutoring, wealthy parents, etc), it’s very easy to do these things with roughly average intelligence. It’s very easy to buy the ability to do exams, and very easy to buy the ability to do applications and interviews.

If you’ve not had a remotely privileged upbringing (care leaver, poor state school, etc) then you need to be extremely intelligent to overcome the huge gap in advantage.

It’s also worth considering that there’s huge difference within these roles - a partner at a magic circle firm is likely to be far more intelligent than one at a local high street firm, and a more recently qualified solicitor is likely to more intelligent than one who qualified 40 years ago because the profession has become more competitive and, 40 years ago, it was easier for dumb people to buy their way in. The same applies to all the other professions you’ve mentioned - an Oxford academic isn’t the same as one from the University of Hull, a local accountant isn’t the same as someone at the Big 4, a top London chambers isn’t the same as your local…

I agree with this. You do not find many people who are not intelligent at the best firms at the top of the professions because the exams are challenging, the hours are brutal in the early stages so it also requires a strong work ethic, the environment is very competitive so you have to be able to hold your own, and you need very good interpersonal skills to manage a team and clients at a relatively young age.

Magic Circle firms/ Big4 have very competitive recruitment processes but these are flawed. However, those who are recruited do not have the required skills are discovered and weeded out fairly quickly.

endingintiers · 23/06/2025 07:29

Unfortunately class, wealth, privilege and nepotism still make up a lot for a lack of / a moderate intelligence.

InsomniacSloth · 23/06/2025 07:31

Theunamedcat · 23/06/2025 07:21

Honestly I've come across some people so fucking incompetent my complaint stated if I did my minimum wage job this poorly I wouldn't have one

Examples would include getting a sen setting for ds
Requirements are for a non aggressive (important!) Autistic child with a learning delay local school is a must due to other issues
Offered a school thirty miles away specifically coded for violent and aggressive children (I said no)
Offered a school 20 miles away for children who cannot access education (ones that don't have much of a chance in education farm based play no real education) (I said no)
Ignored for 6 months (I complained)
Offered mainstream (we all said no)
Another complaint (she went on holiday)
Upon her return we all got very specific LOCAL sen school education based she proceeds to consult with education based sen schools 30 miles away 20 miles away fuck knows how far away I said no I literally have one down the road his friends are all going too perfect for him she came back with another thirty miles away FUCKS SAKE more complaints she went on holiday ds has no school place still and she is just fucking around she then comes back and names a school presents it too me job done.....im looking at it before I approve anything I drive up the school is great they said she should have consulted with them 12 months prior because they had spaces however they can squeeze him in and think he will be a good fit he was and is getting on great it's not local though so they have to pay for transport

Just one example of many on how the fuck do you get and KEEP your very well paid job

Council workers are generally very unintelligent and also behave illegally regarding SEND. These people would get nowhere in any profession being both stupid and unethical (therefore breaching professional standards so would be struck off).

I’m not sure what relevance this has to the thread thpugh given they’re neither qualified in one of the professions nor highly paid?

HarrietBond · 23/06/2025 07:32

Frozo · 23/06/2025 06:48

I’m not sure why you think an academic needs to be any smarter than a doctor or a lawyer?

I also don’t know why you think a barrister needs to be any smarter than a solicitor?

Why do you think these things?

In my experience of these professions, if you’ve had a privileged upbringing (private school or very good state school, private tutoring, wealthy parents, etc), it’s very easy to do these things with roughly average intelligence. It’s very easy to buy the ability to do exams, and very easy to buy the ability to do applications and interviews.

If you’ve not had a remotely privileged upbringing (care leaver, poor state school, etc) then you need to be extremely intelligent to overcome the huge gap in advantage.

It’s also worth considering that there’s huge difference within these roles - a partner at a magic circle firm is likely to be far more intelligent than one at a local high street firm, and a more recently qualified solicitor is likely to more intelligent than one who qualified 40 years ago because the profession has become more competitive and, 40 years ago, it was easier for dumb people to buy their way in. The same applies to all the other professions you’ve mentioned - an Oxford academic isn’t the same as one from the University of Hull, a local accountant isn’t the same as someone at the Big 4, a top London chambers isn’t the same as your local…

But life choices also matter. A partner in the Magic Circle is not automatically cleverer than someone practising law in a small town. They may well have different priorities and preferences. Being intelligent does not need to go hand in hand with material success for example. You may want or need to live somewhere away from a big city.

The age profile definitely resonates with me. The career I went into at 21 was madly competitive at the time and two decades later I don’t think I’d stand a chance. And we, as young women with great qualifications, and the pick of a multi day assessment process with a barrage of tests, interviews and exercises, were being put down and patronised by aged public school boys who were basically threatened by us deep down as they had walked into their jobs in the 70s waving their school ties ahead of them.

JustASmallBear · 23/06/2025 07:32

Frozo · 23/06/2025 07:22

I strongly, strongly disagree with you - and so do the numbers. The single most correlating factor with income is connections to high earners.

I work in one of the jobs that OP is talking about and all the least intelligent people I work with have connections. It’s not about getting you in the door, it’s about getting you ahead on what to say so it sounds like you know what you’re doing.

Consider a plumber who knows everything about how your plumbing works. Everything. Can figure out a problem in an instant, can fix it just as quick. But, he was completely self-taught due to a lack of connections so called pipes “tubes” and calls taps “dribblers”. No one would hire this guy over the plumber who is pretty shit but sounds the part. And, even once hired, pretty shit isn’t bad enough to sack or kick off about (especially when 90% of the others on the team are also pretty shit). Tubes and Dribblers plumber doesn’t even get the chance to prove he’s a better plumber. It doesn’t take any intelligence to use the right words in an interview - it takes having a connection and an upbringing where that happened. This is how 99% of barristers, solicitors, doctors, accountants, etc are chosen - on sounding the part regardless of substance.

On top of that, people hire people like themselves, they retain people like themselves and they give the benefit of the doubt to people like themselves. They say they’re prioritising “people skills” when they mean they’re prioritising people they like talking to. So, if you don’t know how to ski or what chateau neuf du pape is then you’ll struggle to get into certain fields. The whole “he’s the kind of guy we could put in front of a client” is a huge part of the process for any professional services role - and they assume the client is a wealthy, white, privately educated, straight man.

Show quote history

This.

I'd also say that just because you have book smarts it doesn't make you an all round intelligent person.

Expatornot · 23/06/2025 07:33

What is your definition of intelligence? Is it just a number on the IQ scale?

I would say career success depends on much more than that. Sure intelligence will probably help with getting good grades but there are many people who get ok grades and then go on to be amazing in their profession because they have work ethic, personality, emotional intelligence and a whole host of other redeemable qualities.

Intelligence will only get you so far. I was a top ten student and there are a few students in the top ten who were exceptionally gifted academically but have not managed to translate that into a field of expertise where you would think they would end up. Eg the student who consistently was top of our class is now a beauty therapist and she may be a very good beauty therapist but it’s certainly not the most ‘intelligent’ vocation. Turns out she struggled socially and possibly was an undiagnosed austistic.

InsomniacSloth · 23/06/2025 07:34

Offcom · 23/06/2025 07:17

Interesting how many people on quiz shows with vast amounts of general knowledge give their profession as taxi driver.

Meanwhile I once heard my friend with PhD ponder the methods used to train fleas for flea circuses.

Knowledge and intelligence aren’t the same thing.

Mulberryblackbird · 23/06/2025 07:35

Offcom · 23/06/2025 07:17

Interesting how many people on quiz shows with vast amounts of general knowledge give their profession as taxi driver.

Meanwhile I once heard my friend with PhD ponder the methods used to train fleas for flea circuses.

But flea circuses are fascinating!

Expatornot · 23/06/2025 07:36

InsomniacSloth · 23/06/2025 07:34

Knowledge and intelligence aren’t the same thing.

Show quote history

Yes.

I’ve got some friends who are book smart but not street smart and I certainly wouldn’t call on them in an emergency because I’m not confident that they would know what to do in real life.

OrangePineapple25 · 23/06/2025 07:40

I’m a solicitor so can comment. Law is quite competitive. When I did my post grad (LPC) the statistics were 1 in 8 would go on to get a training contract which was necessary to qualify. Your post grad was self funded so it was a risk. Some unis charged around £14k, I paid £10k and had to support myself for that year too.

So if you had bad grades it was harder still, those with a 2:2 were really up against it and tbh were often told not to bother. There was one or two who went to work for family firms and who were thick, but overall you had to have an edge and academic flair.

I didn’t do well in my GCSE or a-levels (personal circumstances - victim of sexual crime and ensuing court case which took over my life for a few years) and I had to really work hard and take a long path to qualify. I was/am academic I just didn’t apply myself and have the grades.

So yes, in a nutshell. They’ll always be some exceptions.

InsomniacSloth · 23/06/2025 07:41

Frozo · 23/06/2025 07:22

I strongly, strongly disagree with you - and so do the numbers. The single most correlating factor with income is connections to high earners.

I work in one of the jobs that OP is talking about and all the least intelligent people I work with have connections. It’s not about getting you in the door, it’s about getting you ahead on what to say so it sounds like you know what you’re doing.

Consider a plumber who knows everything about how your plumbing works. Everything. Can figure out a problem in an instant, can fix it just as quick. But, he was completely self-taught due to a lack of connections so called pipes “tubes” and calls taps “dribblers”. No one would hire this guy over the plumber who is pretty shit but sounds the part. And, even once hired, pretty shit isn’t bad enough to sack or kick off about (especially when 90% of the others on the team are also pretty shit). Tubes and Dribblers plumber doesn’t even get the chance to prove he’s a better plumber. It doesn’t take any intelligence to use the right words in an interview - it takes having a connection and an upbringing where that happened. This is how 99% of barristers, solicitors, doctors, accountants, etc are chosen - on sounding the part regardless of substance.

On top of that, people hire people like themselves, they retain people like themselves and they give the benefit of the doubt to people like themselves. They say they’re prioritising “people skills” when they mean they’re prioritising people they like talking to. So, if you don’t know how to ski or what chateau neuf du pape is then you’ll struggle to get into certain fields. The whole “he’s the kind of guy we could put in front of a client” is a huge part of the process for any professional services role - and they assume the client is a wealthy, white, privately educated, straight man.

Show quote history

This shows you know nothing about the recruitment processes. It involves far more than “saying the right words”. There are aptitude tests in different areas (logic, maths etc), tests of interpersonal/ team working skills, individual tests under time pressure, as well as interviews. Then those who do not do well with clients/ workload management/ can’t manage the professional exams alongside this are weeded out during their training period and fired.

Expatornot · 23/06/2025 07:43

Thinking about a PP mentioning connections, it also speaks volumes that many family businesses fail when the next generation is handed the reins.

OrangePineapple25 · 23/06/2025 07:43

And yes your connections - it was unusual in my practice to be state educated. In fact when people found out I was it became somewhat of a talking point as it was just an exception. The law society collect stats but I can’t recall them off the top of my head. What I learnt in private practice was it was a bit of an old boys club, the clients, partners etc had all gone to school together.

AgnesX · 23/06/2025 07:44

A bit of brain does help as does drive, motivation and energy. Think doctors.

YellowGrey · 23/06/2025 07:44

I've worked with lots of actuaries and they are usually very smart.

BusMumsHoliday · 23/06/2025 07:48

HighLadyofTheNightCourt · 23/06/2025 07:16

I’m an academic and wouldn’t consider myself super intelligent.
I’ve always worked hard and I obviously know my subject very well but I’m certainly no genius!!

I’ve progressed and been promoted over my more intelligent colleagues due to my work ethic, people skills and ability to see the bigger picture.

I also possess a decent amount of common sense which some of my super intelligent academic colleagues sometimes lack!

Do you want to come and work in my department? (Joking, obviously, there are no jobs...)

Also an academic. I think I probably grasp concepts quicker than most people, I retain information very well, I can make intellectual jumps many people can't, and I will sit with a difficult problem for a long time. I find the intellectual work satisfying. All those things makes my research good.

But I agree that I'm good at my job overall because I can manage and collaborate with people, I'm empathetic, I'm a reasonably competent administrator, I communicate complex ideas well. Some people are just research superstars, but it's getting much much harder to progress through the profession on "brilliance" alone.

Increasingly, I find "intelligence" alone very hard to define and separate from other qualities. What we think it looks like is so culturally conditioned, and to be useful it needs to be packaged with other qualities.

DH is in one of the professions the OP lists. He and his colleagues generally have a "sharpness" to them - they notice things, grasp a idea quickly, join dots at an almost ferocious speed, have incredibly mastery of ideas and material. It's a different kind of intelligence to my colleagues generally, but more or less? I couldn't say.

ZenNudist · 23/06/2025 07:48

I'm an accountant of 25 years. Half big 4 half mid tier. I don't know any thick accountants or lawyers

Doctors have to be intelligent too

Greyskies92 · 23/06/2025 07:49

skippy67 · 23/06/2025 07:12

Strongly disagree. Connections get you through the door, but once in you've got to back it up!

Show quote history

Totally depends on the area

Ontherocksthisyear · 23/06/2025 07:51

Doctors, lawyers.... i think so yes. Takes a degree of critical thinking and a number of differing intelligent traits... social intelligent, emotional intelligence, as well as being able to pass exams and study. Other jobs not so much... accounting for example. Yes you need to be good at maths, but that's about it. I know an accountant. Got rubbish at school, can't hold conversation about current affairs or deeper topics.... but happened to be good with numbers. So I guess there is a certain type of intelligence there. But if you met them you wouldn't thinking they were paticularly 'intelligent'.

Devilsmommy · 23/06/2025 07:53

Academically smart yes, not necessarily life smart

thesecondmrsdewinter20 · 23/06/2025 07:54

LandSharksAnonymous · 23/06/2025 07:05

Depends on what exactly your job is.

I’d argue that some PAs are more intelligent than the average solicitor. Most people in those professions aren’t actually intelligent in the sense of critical thinking or logic but book smart - which still makes them intelligent, just not the sort of intelligence I would necessarily hold in high regard.

One of the best Ambassadors I’ve work with doesn’t have a degree and is not academic. But they are the best at what they do - because they can read a work, understand people and make logical conclusions from limited information.

You can teach yourself to be academic (very often anyway), but the sort of intelligence that ambassador has, or a good PA has, can’t be taught.

You absolutely need to be intelligent to be a solicitor - it’s all about critical thinking, logic and analysis. I am a former lawyer. Law school wasn’t rote learning - we had open book exams - but problem solving. As is the profession. You don’t memorise legislation and case law, you learn how to interpret them and apply them to the particular problem at hand.