To be oblivious to the issue people have with JKR? I thought she was a feminist. What have I missed?

[laughingnow]

People have warned me not to state the view above as ‘it’s more complicated’

Yes well there are fucked up individuals all over the world of all types. Some trans people are criminals, some cis people are criminals, it says nothing about this category of person as a whole group.

The majority of trans people are ordinary humans who simply want to get on with life as they are. That’s it.

I’m glad you’ve moved away from heterogeneity. Earlier you were saying that ALL transpeople want to be left alone.
I agree. Fucked up individuals exist everywhere. and I have never said that ALL transpeople are like this (I even said in my earlier thread that I believe it’s a vocal minority)

Now - here is the question… how can we tell by looking at a trans person if they are fucked up or not? How do we know which ones are just going to use our changing rooms as part of them ‘getting on with their business’ and which ones are in there for nefarious reasons?
I will tell you how - when it’s already too late to do anything about it.

The risk of being raped is one of the reasons why women have single sex spaces though.

And if you make women's single sex spaces inclusive of trans women - any trans women - you are also making them inclusive of any man, even rapists, irrespective of whether they claim to identify as trans or not.

Because there is actually no way of distinguishing between a male person who really does have a womanly identity, and a male person who doesn't.

There are also, of course, trans people who very much are harassing women. "Rose" the male nurse and Dr Beth Upton, who both harassed their female colleagues in what was supposed to be a single sex environment at work, and the likes of the fragrant India Willoughby, who harasses JK Rowling and other women in plain sight every day on Twitter.

1 - You're asking that women to stop having negative opinions about trans people. If this thread was nothing but cooing about how stunning and brave they all are, you'd welcome it with open arms.
2 - You're asking that women stop deconstructing the trans narrative. Again, if opinion and discussion was solely positive - you wouldnt be making these demands.
3 - You're asking that women stop using and enforcing words related to them as a sex class, because when using those words, it becomes all too clear that trans identified males are not women.
4 - You're asking that women accede to the trans narrative, and play along with the pretence that they are whatever and whoever they say they are - despite significant evidence to the contrary.

You are closing your argument with the falsehood that this will have no impact on womens lives. Oh but it will, and you know it.

a) Women and girls will not be able to undress or use facilities that ensure their dignity and privacy without males.
b) Women will not be able to access things like rape crisis centres, without males.
c) Women will not be able to request specifically female care or support.
e) Vulnerable women will be housed in prison estates with males.
f) Women will be accommodated on hospital wards etc with males.
g) Same sex attracted females will be forced to include males both socially and sexually, or risk their own exclusion from groups and societies designed to support same sex attracted females.
h) the very concept of women only and lesbian only will be utterly erased so that males can have their identities centred and validated.

Women have said no. And they meant it.
Pleading at them to ignore fucking everything that keeps them safe is not going to achieve your desired result.

What WOULD have "no impact on my life whatsoever" would be trans identified males being accommodated and validated by other males, in male spaces.
^^

Yes he did! That’s why we need people like JKRowling to say perfectly sensible things so that others can be less afraid to express their views too, hopefully without losing their jobs, going forward. Although teachers profession has still a long way to go to be fair - Kevin Lister case is still ongoing, and many other teachers have risked and sometimes lost their jobs for expressing a perfectly sensible opinion whilst third party providers continue to make money off our kids by ‘teaching’ them about a multitude of genders behind parents backs.

I understand from your post that you are very defensive of people who I will refer to as ‘genuine trans people’ - the ones that just want to be left alone etc. Fair enough. But consider that the people you should be directing your anger at are the vocal minority that make the entire trans community look bad to some people.

“It's of virtually no cost to you whatsoever to accept and accommodate trans people. All you have to do is address them as they asked to be addressed as you do for everyone else, and then otherwise leave them alone.”

“It would have virtually no impact on your life whatsoever, if any, if you simply woke up tomorrow and decided never to talk or worry about trans people ever again.”

And I see that lostcat here is again failing to understand feminism and women’s rights. Some people will fight for having the needs of female people prioritised even IF they are one of the rare people who have never needed the rights that are supposed to ensure those needs are met.

Using this logic of lostcat’s, the only women who should fight for specific protections are those directly impacted. What a fucking burden to put on women and girls ! So many posters adding to the burden of women and girls with their censuring.

So, using this logic traumatised female people are the only ones who should be fighting to make sure female rape crisis support is female only, and that female people receive a female health professional to do their medical procedures.

Female prisoners are apparently the only people who should support female single sex prisons. And yet, when that happened a woman was fucking denied parole for two years after she was eligible because she had to face a complaint made in retaliation against her. But sure. Only those directly impacted should discuss this.

Only female sports people should speak up too. Oh hang on…. When they do they risk being dropped from the team, suspended as we have seen, or dropped by their sponsors or socially ‘cancelled’.

But apparently, there is ‘virtually’ no impact on our lives.

Trans people aren't harassing women... So what is Lily Toncito doing taking photos of girls and women in the women's toilets and posting them on tiktok?

Do you think gatekeeping women's toilets to transsexual men who have undergone surgery and generally pass as women the best fudge that we used to do? Because I think that worked.

I don't take offence at men in general dressing as women as a part time or full time hobby. It's something men have been doing for a long time for a myriad of reasons.

But I do take offence at cross dressing men thinking it's ok to use women's and girls' single sex spaces.

There's a big difference there! You can be pissed that someone crosses a boundary without hating their existence.

Even that doesn't work. We have no way of knowing whether a man has had his penis removed or not before he enters women's toilets.

@Lostcat - as a thought experiment (and seeing as I asked you earlier where you draw the line but you didn’t respond)

Let’s say you have an 11 year old daughter. Let’s say you and your daughter are out somewhere, you’re in a queue waiting to buy something and she needs the toilet so you stay in the queue and she goes off to find the women’s. Then let’s say that you see a 6ft 2in male in a dress follow her in to the toilets. Would you bat an eyelid? Would you go in after her to make sure she is ok? Would you say to yourself “this is absolutely fine, she is just ‘going about her business’”?

Then let’s say you take your 11 year old daughter swimming. You are changing after a long swim in a communal changing room. You see a fully intact transwoman in the changing rooms, completely naked and looking over at your daughter. Do alarm bells start ringing or do you simply tell yourself that “she is just going about her business”

How much are you willing to sacrifice at the altar of trans? And do you think you have a right to tell others how much they should sacrifice?

Not ALL Transwomen are like this. But we won’t know which ones are until it’s too late.

And there it is readers:

Stop having opinions about trans people.

Stop talking about trans people.

Stop trying to force everyone to agree with your definition of particular words.

or in other words

Stop having opinions about trans people. = stop having opinions about where the demands made by some^^ trans people conflict with the needs of female people.

Stop talking about trans people = stop having discussions about where the demands made by some^^ trans people conflict with the needs of female people.

This is a good one :

“Stop trying to force everyone to agree with your definition of particular words.” says the person who is trying to force women to accept that the words they need for themselves as unique from male people, have to include male people.

This one is high on rank hypocrisy.

^^ There are many people with transgender identities who agree with the Supreme Court ruling and who focus their activism on fighting illegitimate discrimination.

The march is Lesbian Pride.

The people protesting it are saying very openly that lesbians should not be allowed their own stuff. Unless they include men.

That doesn't even give you a moment's pause? Really?

Of course they are asking to be left alone. Thru used to be left alone. Then the TRA lobby came along and empowered AGP men to try to access women’s single sex spaces and women quite rightly said ‘hell no!!!’ The quiet, dignified trans women have quite rightly had their access to women’s spaces and right to any consideration revoked permanently as a result because how can we tell if they are ‘good’ transwomen or a raging AGP pervert? The TRA are ironically the enemy of the trans people.

Readers note:

Here is the plea for ‘respect’. But it is an asymmetrical plea. It is all one sided towards a group of male people who have a philosophical belief that doesn’t reflect material reality.

There is no respect for female people given. As you have seen from recent posts.

Women and girls must engage imagination so that they might understand a world where male people are female people.

Women and girls must not campaign for their protections unless they are directly impacted because it is morally wrong if they have ‘virtually no’ impact.

Women and girls must stop having opinions about the negative impacts on them.

Women and girls must stop discussing the negative impacts on them.

Women and girls must give respect when there is no respect given in return.

And readers, it is only true to say some people with transgender identities are not harassing women. I, personally, have been harassed by a male people with transgender identities.

This poster makes blanket statements that they simply cannot support even by logic.

There are male people with transgender identities harassing women. They do it in person and all over the internet. It is a ridiculous statement to make that none of them are.

However, the falsity then is used to support the dishonest accusation of transphobia.

Readers note:

“Yes well there are fucked up individuals all over the world of all types. Some trans people are criminals, some cis people are criminals, it says nothing about this category of person as a whole group.”

This is another small sign of progress.

Indeed there are male people with transgender identities who are raping female people. I am happy to post the evidence if anyone would like to see it.

Because there is no evidence that at any stage in transition a male person has a reduced risk profile of committing either a sex offence or a violent crime, all male people need to be treated equally in laws designed to safeguard female people. Hence, no group of male people should be exempt from safeguarding measures.

To demand that that are exempt is one of those additional privileges I mentioned upthread.

By the way lostcat, haven’t you spent threads telling us that only certain people are really transgender within the group who say they have transgender identities?

If I remember correctly you, personally, support gatekeeping who is and isn’t trans. It is really hypocritical to be calling other posters transphobic, when the group you are heavily invested in supporting would call you transphobic.

Whats the difference between a "trans identified" male and a "cis" male?

The former says, "I am a woman".

This

perfectly said

That's what fundamentalism does wherever it spreads.

On the other hand @laughingnow the hatred that is directed at JK Rowling that has now been targeted at a bunny charity has produced the charity many new donators and this song.

it is a shame someone reported them to the charity commission but the commission quickly told them they were not taking any further action. They were reported for following transphobic accounts (they have a policy to follow those who follow them) and for transphobia (there has been none).

x.com/carrotcottagerr/status/1934696044379390171?s=46

Someone else will have replied, but you are wrong. No one around Khelif believed he was a woman. They put him in the ring so he could get a gold medal for his country. There is no way his support team would have carried him around on their shoulders and banged him on the chest if they actually believed he was female.

Khelif is Algerian. This is the same country which ostracized and threatened an actual woman - Hassiba Boulmerka - for running around an athletics track in shorts and winning multiple medals for her country.

I keep searching for logical arguments and/or debates online from TRAs but I haven’t been able to find one. I do try learn both sides before trying to understand my own position- the best interviews I have seen are with what I would call genuine or ‘old school’ Transwomen who sit there saying they know they aren’t women and they don’t agree with the social contagion of people claiming to be when they’re not.

The only way the TRA position makes any sense is if ...

You genuinely believe that humans can change sex. Though, to be fair, I'm not sure if anyone genuinely takes this position any more.

You don't believe that women's rights are very important - or at least that they are less important than 'trans rights'.

You fundamentally don't understand the basics of safeguarding and/or you think being able to 'identify' as what you like is a higher order need, therefore safeguarding can be overridden when these are in conflict. This might just be a variation on the previous point.

Or perhaps more likely, you haven't given it the slightest degree of thought. When you do, you're in deep denial that you or your side could ever be wrong about anything and you're coping with the cognitive dissonance by yelling 'right wing' at anyone how disagrees with you.

I guess this is why I just can’t understand it.

It seems to me largely that it’s logic vs emotion. I think this is why the debate breaks down over and over again because only one side is arguing with logic. So it ends up being an argument.