To be oblivious to the issue people have with JKR? I thought she was a feminist. What have I missed?

[laughingnow]

People have warned me not to state the view above as ‘it’s more complicated’

@Helleofabore and others on this thread.

I understand that your entire perspective on this situation rests on being able to diminish transness to a 'philosophical belief'.

Being trans is not a 'philosophical belief'. This is misunderstanding; this is prejudice. This is your failure to exercise imagination and judgement to understand a person who is different from you.

Being trans is a fundamental characteristic of human diversity, like sexuality, disability, ethnicity, age and many others.

Trans people have always existed, they are here. You can chose to accommodate them, or you can chose to diminish, exclude, discriminate, cause harm.

If you chose the latter, there are people who will fight this wrong until it stops.

You can chose to accommodate them.(sic)

These 'accommodations' are demands to forcibly access the single sex services and spaces allowed in the EQA2010 for the safety and dignity of women.

The Supreme Court said no. Women are saying no.

No.

Readers note:

The UK Equality Act is very clear that there are forms of legitimate discrimination available to be used when needed.

It is important to understand that when a poster such as you see on these threads uses a plea about people not experiencing discrimination, that they don’t ever qualify whether this is legitimate discrimination they don’t want a group subject to or illegitimate. Of course, no people should be experiencing illegitimate discrimination.

However, what posts such as one quoted does is conflate both types of discrimination. Because the poster considers legitimate discrimination to be immoral and unjust too. They believe that a group of male people should not be subjected to having to follow the laws that exclude them from female single sex provisions.

This is a well used tactic.

And I think it is a dishonest one.

Being trans is a fundamental characteristic of human diversity, like sexuality, disability, ethnicity, age and many others

I can’t speak for others but I agree that it is a fundamental characteristic of human diversity. Just like Narcissistic Personality Disorder is, just like being attracted to children is, just like being tall or short or whatever. The question is, how much do you expect people to budge up for others? If it’s at great cost to them then it’s not fair. Take disability as a good example - let’s assume someone tragically has lost the use of their legs and are in a wheelchair. Should the places they go to visit have wheelchair access? Too bloody right, that is a concession which doesn’t hurt or affect anyone else. Should they be allowed to get a job as a firefighter to rescue people from burning buildings? No. That’s heartbreaking if they once had their heart set on that… but you can’t risk other human lives to allow someone else to feel included.

Some concessions for trans people are fine. I personally have no issue with pronoun usage, for example. But what some trans people are asking for to feel included comes at great cost to others in society. Thats not ok

It’s always a disingenuous argument isn’t it? Always full of emotional statements such as “they all just want to be left alone” when we can see with our own eyes that this isn’t the case with every single trans person!

I saw an excellent interview with a Transwoman on YouTube. She was very measured and balanced and described how she used to be a TRA until she listened to women and others and understood their position. She was very intelligent and eloquent and understood their situation entirely. She isn’t upset when she gets misgendered and states that TRAs are doing far more harm than good.

It's of virtually no cost to you whatsoever to accept and accommodate trans people. All you have to do is address them as they asked to be addressed as you do for everyone else, and then otherwise leave them alone.

It would have virtually no impact on your life whatsoever, if any, if you simply woke up tomorrow and decided never to talk or worry about trans people ever again.

Define ‘accept and accommodate’
What do you think we should do to ‘accept and accommodate’
You must have a line that you think it would be unfair for a trans person to cross? So where is your line?

All you personally need to do is:

Stop having opinions about trans people.

Stop talking about trans people.

Stop trying to force everyone to agree with your definition of particular words.

If you ever come across a trans person in the wild address them as they ask to be addressed (e.g. use their name) and let them get along with their business as you do with everyone else.

This is all you need to do.

This will have virtually no impact on your life whatsoever.

You, lostcat, have never yet provided the evidence to support your claim that what is the commonality between all people with a transgender identity is more than philosophical belief. You have attempted to explain this over many threads now and nothing you post provides any neurological or biological markers that are conclusive or common. And you also tell us you have qualifications in this area, if I remember correctly.

It is not me ‘diminishing’ their belief or their identity. It is me understanding what their identity involves. And it is not prejudice to come to this understanding even though you have numerous times name called me and others for having a different understanding to you.

“This is your failure to exercise imagination and judgement to understand a person who is different from you”

Thank you for admitting that it requires imagination to come to your own view point.

”You can chose to accommodate them, or you can chose to diminish, exclude, discriminate, cause harm.”

I and the majority of the UK population agree with the current legislation under the EA2010. That has actually always been the basis of my personal view about this, even before the Supreme Court clarified the law.

Can I suggest you reduce the hyperbole in your posts because they really do contain misinformation and are over emotionally manipulative without addressing the issues you want to address?

Oh cool!

So we can have our single sex rape crisis services, domestic abuse refuges, sporting categories, female prison estate Etc back with no fuss! Great!

You do wonder what all the campaigning for self id and the protests against the Supreme Court judgement were about though if it's only about addressing people as they want to be addressed.

Weird...

I'd love to leave them alone and never pay one more second of attention to them.

Maybe direct your 'leave them alone' at the men that will be protesting the female only lesbian march and picnic that is being planned at the weekend?

Trans people are already included everywhere in society.

They are included in all mixed sex environments, and where single sex environments exist, they have a biological sex, just like everyone else.

Male spaces are inclusive of trans women and female spaces are inclusive of trans men.

Demanding to be included in spaces for members of the opposite sex does put a burden on the rest of society, whether you acknowledge that or not.

Disabled people need accessible spaces because they cannot access regular spaces. The same is not true of trans people.

“This is your failure to exercise imagination and judgement to understand a person who is different from you”

Seriously. Thanks for this.

If a law and policy requires imagination to support, it is abjectively unfit for purpose. That you finally recognise that imagination is required is important.

1. you cannot ask other people to not have opinions. You’re allowed yours, we are allowed ours
2. you cannot ask people to stop talking about trans people. You’re allowed to talk about it, so are we
3. I would never force someone to agree with me. I’d ask you to kindly do the same
4. I already would address them in the manner in which they prefer. What ‘business’ do I need to let them get on with? Putting out their bins? Going for a coffee? Calling for TERFs to die?

It's of virtually no cost to you whatsoever to accept and accommodate trans people

Wrong.
Accept them fine no problems.
Accommodate them.....in what way?
Because males in female spaces very much comes at a cost for women and girls.

Stop trying to force everyone to agree with your definition of particular words.

Brought to you, without a trace of irony, by the same people who are trying to force us to accept their definition of the word "woman", as "anyone who says they are a woman", and who want to stop us from having a word for "female people" because it upsets male people who want to be included in the definition of "woman".

Also, may I ask the same of some trans people towards women? Surely that’s a fair exchange?
Or are they allowed to force me to agree with their definitions? Can I request that they just let me get on with my business, too? Or do your concessions only apply to transpeople?

I'd love to leave them alone and never pay one more second of attention to them.

Then do it. You don't need to have an opinion about who trans people are. You really don't. just leave them alone.

The 'female only lesbian march' at the weekend is an anti-trans political protest/ demonstration. Like a march for palestine or such - of course there will be people protesting it.

Anyone who wants to have a private picnic should of course be able to do so without disturbance.

And yet, this is another dishonest and emotionally laden appeal.

But, it has one grain of honesty.

‘virtually’. It seems we have now past the point where we were abusively told there was ‘no’ impact to us.

But alas, this poster makes a very clearly prejudiced stance that women are not negatively impacted directly. They don't know this at all, they have just assumed to then post this shaming post. And yet many of us are just by our own interactions within society.

I'll leave them alone when they leave women alone to occupy our single sex spaces in peace, without being forced to budge up for male people.

Deal?

Then do it. You don't need to have an opinion about who trans people are. You really don't. just leave them alone

But you’re allowed to have an opinion on who trans people are?

Yep, you are definitely taking the piss.

Trans people aren't harassing women. This is transphobia. Trans people are simply asking to be accepted and included in society like anyone else, if you chose to take offence at their person, what can they do? It's like their very being is a weapon in your mind. This is transphobia.

You can use whatever definitions of things you like, as long as when you address someone else's person, you do so with respect. That's it. It's a very simple principle.

Some of them are raping women, @Lostcat.

Your first sentence is patently untrue. SOME trans people absolutely are. SOME trans people have been harassing a bunny sanctuary for crying out loud!

So now all you’re asking me to do is address someone with respect? I already do that anyway. So we are good? Because that is the only thing I am prepared to do.
You haven’t replied to any of my other points though.