Watching Trooping of the Colour - AIBU to feel proud or is it an anachronistic, expensive waste of money?

[Isdinnerreadyyet]

Been watching Trooping of the Colour. I just love the bands, the precision of the marching, the horses - all of it TBH. We do it better than anyone else IMO. Also good for tourism as many tourists come to the UK for the pageantry, palaces etc.

AIBU to feel proud?

Or is it an anachronistic, expensive waste of money?

And you don’t think there’s a lust for violence in the right wing? Wow.
You are talking about an extreme. The centre to what passes for far left in British politics actually tend towards pacifism. I see Reform supporters talking about sinking boats fairly regularly.

Which is why a good addition to the Left/Right axis in politics is the Authoritarian / Libertarian axis.

Stalinists and Nazis have very similar ideas about authoritarianism, violence and control, but very difficult ideas about economic systems.

Anarchists and Libertarians share similar perspectives on freedom from the state but with very different (co-operative v individualistic) notions of what to do with it.

Most of us are nearer the middle of all of these axes, but we still have instinctive responses to basic questions like:

Should we have identity cards? Do children today have too much or not enough freedom? Should the public show more respect to authority?

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Trooping The Colour is more likely to appeal more to people who value standards and discipline, traditions and rules. That means they lie towards the Authoritarian on the A/L axis, but could define themselves as either left or right wing.

(Incidentally, more than income, age or geography, these were absolutely the qualities that mapped most closely onto the Brexit vote. Remain voters were more likely to be Libertarian and Leave voters more likely Authoritarian. In fact, the question that would predict your Brexit vote was "do you support the death penalty in some circumstances?")

Nope. You’re conflating different things. Appreciating history doesn’t mean not wanting much of modern life to change. You don’t have to abandon all tradition to be left wing. Not everyone who likes some traditional stuff is conservative (small c or otherwise). Am I to start hating Shakespeare?

Where have I suggested that change is always good and tradition is always bad?

I agree with a lot of this. I think you are misinterpreting why some people enjoy TotC though. It’s not necessarily because they have authoritarian values. I like the music. I appreciate the skill as a (much inferior) musician. I appreciate he horsemanship. I appreciate the skill in making/embroidering the uniforms. I don’t think any of that represents authoritarianism.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that Trooping The Colour is more likely to appeal more to people who value standards and discipline, traditions and rules. That means they lie towards the Authoritarian on the A/L axis, but could define themselves as either left or right wing.
(Incidentally, more than income, age or geography, these were absolutely the qualities that mapped most closely onto the Brexit vote. Remain voters were more likely to be Libertarian and Leave voters more likely Authoritarian. In fact, the question that would predict your Brexit vote was "do you support the death penalty in some circumstances?")

Interesting, MasterBeth!

I hate the polarisation of views and identity politics (and labelling) of today.

Just as a quick response: I'm anti-death penalty, I'm a strong Remainer (with some criticisms of the EU). I support the NHS and BBC in principle (both need serious work, though).

I think no CEO should earn more than a reasonable multiple of the salary of their lowest-paid worker. I believe in well-regulated capitalism and safe-guarding of workers' rights.

I think I am mildly authoritarian in some ways but can be a rebel in others - I think we're all like that!

I am suspicious of some of the types of categorisation you mention. I have done several surveys on this kind of thing in my time and I just do not fit into these rigid boxes. I tend to distrust people who do!

But worried that liking Vaughan Williams makes you small c Conservative!
What about Michael Tippett? Benjamin Britten? Elgar?

Of course you can enjoy pageantry without being regressive!

Just as the soldiers taking part in TtC have modern weapons alongside the red coats, and wear standard modern military uniform 99% of the time.

Yes but - my point is - I've never met right-wing, violent people. I've always worked in the public services - so possibly they're all hiding in other areas of life.

But my experience is amongst self-styled Marxists etc who expressed some horrible views.

If you work in some areas - i don't know - with football hooligans or whatever, then perhaps you might meet vicious right-wingers - but I would thing people like the sort who attack asylum hostels etc aren't politically literate or aware - they're just old-fashioned thugs.

Seriously - where have you met politically-aware right-wingers who advocate violence? I'd be interested to know.

I am not surprised that you, as a left-winger, support tradition.

I am surprised that you, as a left winger, support this particular elitist tradition of celebrating a hereditary monarch through a military parade of "his" troops.

Trooping the Colour is not some historical re-enactment. It happened yesterday. We have a monarchy now. These subjects sent to slaughter swear a pledge to defend this
individual.

(No, please don't hate Shakespeare.)

Love them too! I think British music is still underrated.

That's the impression I get from some posts, though. I read and listen to everything I can about Vaughan Williams and I think, until very recently when people have seen a bit of sense, there was a definite view of him (and other similar composers) as too English, too nostalgic (he was a a really innovative composer), too pastoral, rural, lyrical, folk-song inspired etc. These things when I was growing up were BAD THINGS. I never thought they were bad - but I was aware the prevailing intellectuals thought so.

I love English, nostalgic, pastoral, rural, folk-based things. So there - take that, you snobbish critics! (Not you, Curlew!!)

Hear hear. I'm glad that disgusting post was removed.

Same. I wouldn't swap my rural quintessential English village, for anything. Living here, having moved from a big city, I've found peace. The VE celebrations were outstanding 🇬🇧 im fortunate to have the Lancaster Bomber regularly fly over. Plenty of English pride in my neck of the woods.

Hmm. There are many right wingers in this country who were very lukewarm in their condemnation of the advocates of asylum hotel burning, if they condemned at all. Right wingers violence is cloaked in respectability.

I'm sorry I've been on this thread so much but it touches on matters I care about - bigger issues than a royal parade.

I detest the sneery labelling of people as Tories, right-wingers, royalists, forelock-tuggers (tbf, no-one has used that insult on this thread but it does appear a lot on MN), authoritarians, Brexiteers, etc etc. It's just SO reductive and simplistic, and frankly - I think it's what's wrong with Britain today, to use a cliche. I feel insulted that someone can think they know how my mind works, or what my views are on all kinds of things, just because I enjoy TtC and am a mild (non-flag-waving, non-camping-out-on-the-Mall) constitutional monarchist. And I'm sorry - I don't want to sound mean, but this kind of dismissive labelling and putting down does come mostly from left-wingers on MN and in real life in my general experience.

I stopped going to my most convenient hairdresser because I couldn't cope with her Brexity politics. People are nuanced - or at least, thoughtful people are. But I guess I AM a small-c conservative - and as another pp said, that's not a bad thing.

Just one anecdote and then I'll bugger off and leave you all in peace! When I was on training course about using dance with children the lecturer showed a video of a range of traditional dances: Irish, Indian (but see below), Russian, African etc. He then added "These are just some ideas - you could use traditional English dances too, such as Morris dancing". I heard a scoff from a woman behind me who said 'What - English traditional dances? That's a bit naff and pathetic!"

Well, I bet anyone from the Indian sub-continent would probably have laughed at what was being shown to us as representative of their culture - and judged it naff too. It just seems that with some people anything that's British (actually, English - the Celts are cool!) and traditional isregarded as the equivalent of a Nuremburg Rally, and it's just so boringly predictable and grossly unfair.

And to be clear - I've got no beef with republicans - only with nasty-minded people who make it personal, spiteful and vicious. There's no need to insult KC or anyone else - they're just doing the job as well as they can. Whether or not we want them to is up to us as a democracy.

Rant over!

The self hate for one's own country and its traditions, is bizarre on MN. I can understand some of the points, but it's the catch all bingo card rants I can't be doing with.

I question your terminology. Do these people identify as right-wingers? I'm sure they're the same type who would have been in the Brownshirts, the SA, in Nazi Germany - I'm not arguing with that. But the people I'm talking about consciously identified as left-wingers - they were politically literate and aware.

I'm sure you're right in that their would be/is a correlation between people with extreme right-wing views and violence against minorities, but I don't think many of them would say 'Yes, I'm a right-winger, me - I have a coherent belief system on economics, social and foreign policy'. I would argue that they're mostly unthinking, brutal thugs.

And few people will say 'I'm very right-wing!' At least - not in my experience. But I've often heard the boast 'I'm very left-wing'.

To be honest, if you don’t like the way you think the Right is characterised on Mumsnet, try coming over to the Left for a while. You’ll soon be hurrying back to the safety of being called forelock tugging and flag waving!

Couldn’t agree more. Apart from I get called a forelock tugger too. I’ve got the worst of both worlds!

I can appreciate the skill and talent and the preservation of trades without supporting the monarchy though which is what I’ve been saying. If we move to an elected head of state we would do well to keep them going. The people taking part are far from elite.

And I'm sorry - I don't want to sound mean, but this kind of dismissive labelling and putting down does come mostly from left-wingers on MN and in real life in my general experience
@CoffeeCantata thats because more left wing than right wing people are republicans though. It doesn’t mean they are nastier than right wingers. Try suggesting that asylum seekers aren’t the root of all evil on these boards and see the right wing vitriol - and assumptions about everything else you believe.