If you teach, was your SEN training good enough?

[Whatafustercluck]

Inspired by a post from Bridget Phillipson about Labour investing in almost 3,000 more teachers. Many on that Facebook post highlighting SEN training as inadequate, so I'm curious about views from teachers.

My own experience (as a parent, not a teacher) has been very mixed. A senco who based her understanding of neurodivergence only on the traditional, mostly male presentation of autism and who therefore believed my then 6yo dd was 'fine at school'. A brilliant Y2 teacher (who had a partner with ADHD) who took the time to understand every child and knew how to get the best out of each of them - ND or not. A brilliant Y3 teacher, who has herself got one adult child with ADHD and a younger daughter with autism who just 'gets it'. A secondary school, in which some teachers excel in understanding ADHD and applying appropriate support and management strategies, and some that still appear to question whether it's even real, let alone try to understand/ support (despite a formal diagnosis).

EHCP applications have increased and that this is unsustainable. But my theory is that if SEN training for teachers was prioritised and was comprehensive enough, this may help stem the flow of EHCP applications from parents who currently feel unheard and unsupported. Many SEN children could thrive in mainstream, with very minor adjustments that inconvenience nobody, and attendance would also improve as a result.

I'm not a teacher, but I really value education and appreciate the two or three really excellent teachers who have supported my children to do well in mainstream schools. But it strikes me that those teachers, without exception, have personal lived experience of neurodivergence that only those dealing with it every day, as a parent or family member, really understand. The only thing I can think of that may improve this situation is improved SEN training for all teachers, yet I've heard from several teachers that they've had perhaps one day which has focused solely on autism.

I've said she has her own children, one of whom has adhd and the other who is autistic - and she has said that underpinned her motivation to become a teacher due to, in her experience, a lack of SEN awareness within education. It's actually a really good example of how a teacher has used her personal experience to create an inclusive environment in which all children can flourish. So no, I don't believe it has anything to do with training in her case but rather lived experience.

That's not what I'm saying at all, it's simply many people's experience and I make no apologies for sharing it.

So surely that shows training makes no difference. The difference maker is having lived experience of SEND. It's impossible for all teachers to have that (at least ethically). The problem isn't training.

Is she crap at teaching the non autistic or adhd kids because it's not her lived experience?

I agree it's unlikely to be the only problem in SEN (this thread is proof of that, having surfaced multiple other issues that won't be resolved by training), and I have a lot of sympathy with, and respect for, teachers. But I do think it's an important factor. There's always a seething undercurrent of resentment and cynicism running through these threads, from both teachers and parents, that I find quite sad though.

It was no better in 2010. We did exactly the same on our primary PGCE and it was totally inadequate. Most of what I know I have learnt since in my own time because I had children to support and I didn't know how.

Maybe try reading all my posts before posting. Thanks.

This is a prime example of the kind of seething resentment and cynicism I'm referring to with regards to SEN.

This is not a teacher awareness issue because even though SEND training is totally inadequate in the PGCE, so is behaviour managament. Teachers have to learn on the job and there should be adequate funding so that specialists and SENDcos can advise and support. The curriculum also needs to be adapted, starting with early years. Many European Countries do not start formal education until the children are 6 or even 7. Schools would be very different if the early learning goals were all based around personal skills with no formal learning. Imagine a year 1 class where all the children had progressed to be able to concentrate, listen, speak clearly and hold a conversation, interact, share, cut, hold a pen to draw, understand rules, enjoy listening to a story, know that the day is broken down into different parts and the carpet time is not too long. Then just how much better the learning would go, starting phonics and numeracy in year 1.

I should add I have just been in a reception classroom today and it breaks my heart to see the children that are not yet ready to learn.

The cynicism does come from teachers lived experience of some parents being awful though.

I taught a child with "suspected ADHD" this year. He could behave when he was banned from a party if he got a detention. What does that tell me? All the training in the world won't help with that.

I was made redundant a couple of years ago, I probably had c5 years work left in me. My son benefited from a great SEN reacher so I thought I'd train in that field so I could support others. I was very surprised to find that you need to be a fully qualified teacher with at least 2 years under your belt before you could be considered for the courses. Maybe we need to think about other ways into the role?

Yes, i did say the cynicism comes from both teachers and parents, with both having some fairly shocking examples. The teaching profession isn't immune from that. The default position can't be "this child/ parent was like this, so I'm going to assume you're like that too". As a pp said, resolving issues that arise depends heavily on the quality of communication between the home and school environments.

@Ohnoitsfinallyhappened

There are degree courses available to go into SEND in education but surely if you were going to go into school to support pupil's with a SEND you would need to have experience of teaching in a classroom or you will just be a loggerheads with the teachers all the time.

That wasn't true of my PGCE, which was 15 years ago now, but quite besides that very little of what I learned about being a good teacher was learned in a lecture theatre. You need on the job training. Every student does placements - that is where most of the learning takes place.

This is something I've looked at, too. I would have been happy to take a considerable pay cut in order to pursue something I'm so passionate about. And I still have a good 20 years in me!

Why would you expect not to be a qualified teacher to then train as an SEN teacher?

But presumably only about the SEN their own child has. Or does having a child with ADHD also make you an expert in teaching deaf children, for example?

I teach primary. I have no TA. Ever. No teacher in KS2 does.

Any strategy that relies on a 2nd adult in the classroom is doomed to failure in very many UK primary classrooms. Support staff are being sacked to balance the books.

Just FYI, lots of types of clothing have deep pockets. Fleece zip-ups. Cargo trousers. Comfortable, inclusive clothing can indeed contain pockets for pens and keys and timetables. Judging by my youngest: And the phone they've smuggled in. 4 half-rubbers and a bitten-off pencil, half a packet of crisps and, just this morning, a pack of like 30 Pokemon cards plus lip balm and hand cream.

I said loads of pockets.

Sorry not read through all the posts- but from my personal experience, the presumption of mainstream (Scotland) has been a total disaster and is the bigger concern.
We can be trained to the hilt- and many people are - but that doesn’t magic up resources to implement that training.
Training doesn’t produce boots on the ground. Children require support from skilled and sensitive adults, who can support interactions, interventions and adjustments. When you have 32 children in a class , with nearly 60% of the class with additional support needs, then that’s not additional.
That’s the reality in my school, and it is an impossible task. One teacher and 32 kiddos, with a pupil support assistant sometimes if you’re lucky. Learning environments are also an issue- poor quality, dilapidated buildings, no money for sensory resources, lighting etc
It has gotten worse and worse over the years. The support has been stripped to the bone and it is totally unsustainable.
We are really doing our children a disservice.

I just think sometimes you need to think outside the box to solve a problem. My understanding is that a primary school teacher teaches the whole curriculum - maths, reading, writing, geography, science etc etc in an age appropriate way to children aged 5-11 (or maybe ks1 and KS2 at the least). If I specialise in teaching children that struggle to read and write then I need to concentrate/learn just one thing. I don't need to know about number bonds or the Tudors. I need to know strategies for engaging a child regardless of age in the reading/writing journey.

Teacher training is more than conveying subject knowledge. It's learning how children learn, effective ways to deliver information to ensure maximum understanding and retention. They also equip you with 'how school works', and an awareness of the curriculum and age related expectations. (plus loads of other stuff I can't remember right now!).Those courses will start from the point of assuming you know all that. Hence being for people who are already teaching.

Sticking to the original post, having a specialist reading and writing teacher is something schools don't have the cash for. Even if you were the best trained person.

This plays out completely with my experiences.
20 years of ND children in school, 6 schools, 2 colleges.
In all that time, with contact with all those teachers (trying to roughly count in my head - at least 20 in primary, far more in secondary) only 2 stand out as being any good with ND. This equates to around 1-2% in my personal experience. Both of them had autistic children. TBH neither had to go out of their way with support or 1:1 or anything like that, they just knew how to handle the situation in a way that dc felt safe and sort of regulated (as much as you can be in a classroom that was sensory hell!).
Every other teacher that I spoke to/had anything to do with, that I shared my dc’s diagnoses with in a bid to start off on the right foot, gave not one shit. Many openly didn’t believe in autism. Most felt that discipline was the answer. Some punished the child for things that were clearly related to their disability (eg one with Tourette’s repeatedly given detention for making noises in lessons). I think punishing children made some teachers feel good and vindicated. It was an absolute shit show from start to finish. Lived experience changes everything.

Dealing with a large number of teachers who did not care left me with ptsd. Dealing with teachers was more traumatic than managing the myriad meltdowns due entirely to the way my children were treated by teachers in school. Doesn’t exactly leave you with a great deal of faith in the system.

If mine was a one off situation I could possibly look past it, but the vast majority of parents with autistic children go through the same. The school system is literally a horror show for our children and us and our families.
There are so many things that could be done to help our children better without being bespoke schooling experiences (although of course some children need this), but if you talk about these things people act as if you’re suggesting diamond encrusted personal support for each and every child with SN, whilst actively preventing every other child from learning.

Training can be better. Training led by those with lived experience of SN would be even better. But no matter how good or bad the training is it makes not one shiny bit of difference when so many teachers can leave and cling on to their preconceived notions of autism and other SN. (IME ND is the worst supported because it’s invisible).

Absolutely not! I did a one week placement in a ‘Bridge College’ for young adults (16-25 year olds) with profound and multiple disabilities. I was on the 3-11 Primary BEd Hons degree course 🤷‍♀️

A) One week was nowhere near enough training (and there was no follow up or any other sort of training during my 4 years at Uni).

B) Whilst this college was an absolutely fantastic place for these young people, it was not helpful to me at all given that I was training to be a 3-11 age primary teacher. The students in this college were all so profoundly SEND that they had never been in mainstream education, and I was never going to teach anyone with this level of disability.

It did make me feel very humble though, and the level of care and support given in that place was phenomenal!

Spot on