If you teach, was your SEN training good enough?

[Whatafustercluck]

Inspired by a post from Bridget Phillipson about Labour investing in almost 3,000 more teachers. Many on that Facebook post highlighting SEN training as inadequate, so I'm curious about views from teachers.

My own experience (as a parent, not a teacher) has been very mixed. A senco who based her understanding of neurodivergence only on the traditional, mostly male presentation of autism and who therefore believed my then 6yo dd was 'fine at school'. A brilliant Y2 teacher (who had a partner with ADHD) who took the time to understand every child and knew how to get the best out of each of them - ND or not. A brilliant Y3 teacher, who has herself got one adult child with ADHD and a younger daughter with autism who just 'gets it'. A secondary school, in which some teachers excel in understanding ADHD and applying appropriate support and management strategies, and some that still appear to question whether it's even real, let alone try to understand/ support (despite a formal diagnosis).

EHCP applications have increased and that this is unsustainable. But my theory is that if SEN training for teachers was prioritised and was comprehensive enough, this may help stem the flow of EHCP applications from parents who currently feel unheard and unsupported. Many SEN children could thrive in mainstream, with very minor adjustments that inconvenience nobody, and attendance would also improve as a result.

I'm not a teacher, but I really value education and appreciate the two or three really excellent teachers who have supported my children to do well in mainstream schools. But it strikes me that those teachers, without exception, have personal lived experience of neurodivergence that only those dealing with it every day, as a parent or family member, really understand. The only thing I can think of that may improve this situation is improved SEN training for all teachers, yet I've heard from several teachers that they've had perhaps one day which has focused solely on autism.

I’m 54 so it may have changed but we got half a day on ALL disabilities (secondary English). My son has autism, adhd and dyspraxia and is extremely bright. I had to home educate him as his teachers were useless. You only really understand when it’s your own child but basic teacher training would definitely help.

Yep, that's me! Not out yet but in the 'strongly considering it' camp. Probably out in the next 3-5 years.

Depends on the child and SEN. My child will always need some kind of support, I suspect and has an EHCP which could potentially support him up to the age of 25 if needed.

@Hercisback1 I agree that some SEND is hard to pick up early on by schools. But I've spoken to many parents who know there is something underlying their child's behaviour, but their school simply won't entertain the idea because "it's got to be a parenting problem". And in some cases it is of course.

But I vividly remember talking to my daughter's reception teacher about Coke Bottle effect, her need to organise her environment and contain things to feel more in control, her one very intense and controlling friendship. Her teacher told me that she'd interpreted my daughter containing all the play kitchen equipment in a suitcase as her inability to share with others. She told me that it was normal for little girls to form close friendships. She told me that my daughter chose not to wear her shoes and socks because "small children like wandering around with nothing on their feet". The following year, she missed a half term of school after repeated fight or flight scenarios played out (wouldn't keep a seatbelt on, broke her car seat in half trying to escape, opened the car door on the motorway, pinched, scratched, kicked and hit to the point of drawing blood from me in order to avoid leaving the house etc etc).

In Y1, her reluctance to enter the classroom was met by the teacher rolling her eyes in exasperation. She was made to stay behind and sit on a chair in the middle of the classroom for a minor infringement of the rules while the teacher and TA discussed loudly whether they would send her to the headteacher.

Contrast that with her Y2 teacher who knew that if she engaged dd with talking about something that interests her (her cats, or her new water bottle), the distraction was enough to get her over the threshold and settle down to learn. Or her Y3 teacher who knows to avoid putting her on the spot to answer a question in front of everyone.

I do accept that all of this is much easier to do with dedicated TAs, and in a primary setting where teachers are teaching the same class throughout the day.

Well you are in a VERY privileged, and unusual position then.

Most schools do not have a TA in every class. Indeed, past Reception it is incredibly unusual to have a TA, other than a few hours a week due to the fact you have 3 children with EHCPs in your class. Even then, it is not guaranteed you will have a TA in your class.

One of the best teachers I know left her previous career during Covid and became a teacher precisely because she felt that SEN awareness was lacking in schools, based on her own children's experience. She's absolutely loving teaching, and making a huge difference to many lives. I agree it would be great if we attracted and retained more of these kinds of teachers.

I don't think more training would have changed the Y1 teachers attitude though. Some teachers are not as good as others and no amount of training changes that.

The reception teacher could have been entirely correct and your daughter may have "grown out" of the observed behaviour. Plenty of children do, and some don't. That's the issue, children develop so differently that spending loads of time and resource on early intervention for a child who doesn't need it could be seen as a waste of time and resource, better used elsewhere. It would also give a lot of false positives that children responded well to the intervention, wheras they just "grew up".

Otoh there are countless stories of parents who know something is different with their child and they aren't given the correct support. I'd put responsibility on to parents to seek an EP appointment via the NHS and then follow that forward into schools, not the other way around. This is in a perfect world with enough qualified EPs and a funded NHS. Schools aren't there to diagnose, we should be there to signpost.

Have you not read any of the posts on the last 4 or 5 pages ?

Teachers do not have the capacity to implement (having previously researched and prepared resources for) every strategy that might be worth trying, with every pupil in their class. There are 30 pupils in a class (more once they get into KS2 in many places). Every one of those dc has their own needs. In some classes there can be 10 or more dc that have some sort of 'reasonable adjustment' documented, that's before you get in to the pastoral needs that aren't to do with SEND.
So many people have given you examples of what the teachers are doing their best to deal with every day, whilst they are also supposed to be fitting in teaching the curriculum and dealing with 'deep dives' and whatever other nonsense is in fashion that month.

I don't know any teacher who doesn't want to do more for each and every one of their pupils that struggle in one way or another, but there are only 24 hours in each day, and most teachers try to get around 6 or 7 hours sleep, and also eat, shower, etc.
It isn't lack of knowledge preventing more interventions from happening. It is lack of appropriate adult:child ratios.

Yup
This

@Hercisback1
Otoh, there are countless stories of parents who know something is different with their child and they aren't given the correct support. I'd put responsibility on to parents to seek an EP appointment via the NHS and then follow that forward into schools, not the other way around.

The problem there is that the NHS waiting lists are so long and often parents and their children are already in crisis. The NHS also requires evidence from two settings, EP appointments aren't just granted to anyone who asks for one, specific pathways have to be followed. GPs more often than not ask for evidence from schools before agreeing to refer. Parents instead seek support via EHCPs (because they know this will gain them access to an EP), which comes back to my original point.

That's why I said in a perfect world. Obviously right now this won't work, but nor will your ideas. They both rely on money, which neither education or the NHS has.
School providing evidence is fine, but they shouldn't be the driver of the process.

15 yars ago, SEN training during my PGCE was two hours.
My NQT year, zero training on SEN in my school. Zero of training on SEN in my second school.
Pretty poor SEN training at most schools I worked since.
My current school stepped up their game a bit, but the problem is we focus on one thing (let's say ADHD) and we have an hour for this, but each kid with ADHD is different, and we do random case studies that cover maybe 5% of the kids we actually teach.

I find that sadly, also as a mum of an SEN child, that most great professionals are so because they have ids or other fmaily members with SEN so they lived through that experience. I saw many colleagues leave the training and dismiss everything they have been told or sit on their phones throughout, some people have their own personal opinions such as "autism is a made up thing" or "it's the parenting" and there is no way to get through to them.

This is vanishingly rare nowadays. It comes up on MN threads a lot.

Lack of training really isn't the issue for many schools. I've worked in a fair few, and have had SEN training come out of my ears.

The issue is the lack of adequate time - to prepare lessons and resources the way we should, to teach the curriculum at a slow enough pace, to read and keep updated with the plans, to see the child one to one in class and support, to actually collaborate with TAs in a meaningful way, to get to know the child outside of the classroom.

A lot of issues could be solved by giving teachers adequate time to do their jobs.

I echo others, I have had lost of training over the last few years, but it is often impossible to implement. I've gone from having 1 or 2 students with SEND needs in a secondary class, to having 6+ per class and their needs are often very conflicting. I also have more behavioural issues (from SEND and non-SEND students) than I have ever had before in 16 years; how can I maintain the calm, quiet environment that my student with autism needs when I have a student screaming "f* off!" at someone on the corridor?

There needs to be a change at a bigger level. Students with SEND will still be expected to sit around 20+ GCSE exams, this pressure for exam results will always trump any wellbeing conversation with SLT. The pressure on schools to produce outstanding data is immense and until the government decide that life skills and/or wellbeing are as important as GCSE results, our hands are very tied.

Secondary schools have grown and grown. When I began, my school had 800 students and now it has 2000. This massive school has daily room changes, staffing changes, agency workers with no awareness of the classes etc. how can a SEND child regulate when their day is so incredibly subject to change all the time? Especially at this time of year when almost all TA support (if you're lucky to get it) disappears so that they can help in the GCSE exams.

Lastly, and I'm going to be very unpopular when I say this but...your child can have an EHCP and also be a bit of a prick, the two things are not mutually exclusive. I understand why no parent ever wants to hear that their child's behaviour might be a hindrance, but I had a parent meeting yesterday whereby I was told that I should never provide a consequence for her sons aggressive behaviour because he has ADHD. How can I possibly tell the other parents of the class, that he is allowed to wander the room, taking things from children's blazers and then throwing them around? And what about the other 5 SEND students who find his behaviour a trigger for their own concerns?

But your friend will be barely out of ECT.
And "teacher" gives no real description of what she does.
Is she primary or secondary?
What does she teach?
Is she employed as a class teacher or a teacher that majors in a SEND role?

And is she a good teacher because in your view she spends more time with SEND pupils and not the rest of the class?

There’s a big difference between secondary and primary. I wouldn’t expect your average secondary teacher to know their students in that depth.

DD is ASD. Was just labelled as ‘sensitive’ by several teachers and told she needed to grow out of it. These were teaches she had for 2 years in a small class. I didn’t know at the time what much of behaviour indicted. It was picked up fairly fast in secondary by the SENCO though.
There was a boy in her class who classically presented as ASD and they actually told the mother, there was nothing wrong with him. He seems fine coping in secondary but he goes to a specialist college for science. I imagine it will be hard for him at uni.

She's not my friend, she's my daughter's class teacher. Primary. Class teacher. There are many reasons she's great teacher for all pupils in her class. I have yet to meet another parent who says any different. They all sing her praises - the children love learning in her class, and they are learning a lot through very engaging methods.

Yeah I agree with your second paragraph. All of the support we've managed to obtain from professionals within any service (education, healthcare, local authority) was because the individual dealing with our case had direct personal experience, understood the frustrations, challenges, false stereotypes and stigma, and helped us to find a way of navigating them all. The whole system, the numerous pathways involved, the research and evidence necessary, how organisations work (or don't work) together etc is all incredibly opaque and almost impossible to navigate as a parent. So much so that I too am considering a career change to help others like me and my family.

It is not lack of training or knowledge on the Teachers part BUT a lack of support, provision and funding, that is the problem. Not the 'Teachers are useless and have no idea' as per Jamie 'what can I bash about schools now' Oliver.

Class sizes are far too big for many of the children I taught with SEND, TA's are taken and never replaced and support and provision by outside agencies is also on its knees.

Quite often it will be a teacher with 30 children, of which sometimes at least 15 will have an IEP/EHCP. That one teacher has to manage behaviour, adapt every lesson to meet the needs of each child, often teaching children in the same class who are 2-3 years behind their peers, push and stretch the children who are working at a greater depth, keep the rest of the children on track, remember who needs to go for a brain break or a movement break, the constant need to control the amount of 'fidget toys' brought into class. Repeat. Then after working so hard day and night, you are constantly bashed by parents/media for not doing enough for the children.

For SEND to work in mainstream class sizes need to be smaller, TA's need to exist and paid well, funding needs to go to the shop floor and not the CEO's over inflated pay packets...

Do Teachers have enough training on SEND YES are we able to implement this training and have the set up to enable us to meet all SEND needs? NO.

So is she a good teacher because of the SEND training or because she engages the pupils?

Teachers don't have a clue. Training is almost non-existent. Half a day max on PGCE.

The only teachers who know about SEND are those with SEND children themselves. They often know more than the SENDco

You did your teacher training when?

Sounds like a brilliant idea. Replace all teachers with people with personal experience of SEND.