To think I’m not the toxic person in this situation?

[WartFace]

I’ve posted on this already, under a misleading title. Many apologies. If you’re still interested …

I have known for years that my BiL was not an easy person. He and my sister met at a very traumatic time in our family history and were engaged very quickly. I’ve always felt uncomfortable around him. I’ve told myself it’s envy and other unworthy things. She and I haven’t seen much of each other over the years but I thought we were close.

Nearly 2 years ago he did something that I felt was disrespectful and contemptuous towards me. Regrettably, I made a nasty comment to her on WhatsApp. I know I should have tackled him directly.
She described herself as devastated and when I rang to apologize she told me that I’d insinuated things I absolutely hadn’t even thought. The row went on for weeks. I honestly think I was trying to defend myself against false accusations but she took everything as an attack.

We were NC for some months until I dipped a toe back in the water. She responded very nicely, only stipulating that the past must never again be mentioned.

I apologized repeatedly for my words. She thinks she apologized for hers, but it was very much ‘You made me say it’. She’s never accepted my apologies in so many words. ‘I’m sorry’ was met by silence.

I’ve since heard stories about my BiL from my daughters and DiL that make me think he’s a narcissist or at least a genuine creep. My sister was so horrible and unforgiving and seems to have forgotten that now.

I think he’s a narcissist and she’s absolutely in thrall to him. Or maybe she’s right and I’ve always been the problem? I’m not sure which would be worse tbh.

Thank you, you’re a kind and patient bunch xx

Based on the fact you’re here looking for sign, I’d say that therapy could be helpful. You said in the other thread there were issues with your parents that you believed were part of the problem it wouldn’t be surprising you have some things to work out.

In the meantime don’t try to ‘fix’ your sister. You really have no idea if her husband is toxic. It could very well be that you and your sister (and daughter) all show toxic traits.

Can you explain why you think that please?

It's based on how you're talking.

Giving half stories, the half that makes them look bad, and downplaying your roll in it all.

You needing validation that you're right and they are wrong based on an extremely bias version of events.

All toxic traits.

Oh op

just stop drinking and all this will clear up

I’ve stopped. It hasn’t faded. It’s hard to be told this is ‘daft’ but this is only SM I suppose.

Do you work? Have friends? Hobbies?

I think you have far too much time to stew on this op

and I don’t believe you’ve stopped drinking

I’ve told you my role. I know I made a nasty comment. I did nothing else. Does that really mean no punishment is enough and I can never be forgiven?

You’re calling me a liar? I accept that I’m probably obsessing but what you just did was gaslighting.

My daughter is autistic and my BiL knows that.

This is also you being toxic.

Using a word ike "gaslighting" because a poster doesn't believe something you've said is ridiculous.

I think you should probably step away from trying to get online validation and seek some rl help.

Oh good grief

Put down your glass OP. Hide the thread. And don’t pick up the phone. You’re spiralling

I was on your other thread, and you're still asking the wrong question on this one! You seem obsessed with 'toxicity', as if it's some diagnosable condition you can test for, like Covid or pregnancy.

You experience both your BIL and sometimes your sister as 'toxic' in the sense that they behave in ways you find reprehensible, but the thing is, 'toxicity' in the sense you mean it is entirely subjective, and they almost certainly experience you as 'toxic' too. A bunch of internet strangers can say 'There there, the other two are nasty' but it makes no difference to anything. It only makes you feel validated.

Fundamentally, it doesn't matter. I asked on your other thread what you want going forward. Ultimately you're choosing between an ongoing relationship with your sister and your own need for 'validation' via an apology and a hashing out of the altercation that she has specifically said she will not do.

That is what you should be thinking about, what you want to happen with your sister and you, not ruminating endlessly over a long-past argument.

Honestly, and in the nicest possible way, I think you should look at your drinking, and don't have arguments via WhatsApp.

And yes definitely to therapy. Your sense of self seems very wobbly.

No, gaslighting is when you try to make someone question their own experience. I can assure you that everything I’ve said is true.

It has nothing to do with her being autistic. It does have to do if your parents were toxic and you also seem to have some toxic traits.

Intergenerational toxicity, if you will.

Well that’s definitely true.

That poster said they didn't believe you, that's not gaslighting.

Thank you again for reading my posts carefully and for your well intentioned advice. I’ve stopped drinking (months ago) and have certainly stopped having arguments with anyone.

All I wanted was possible reassurance that I’m not as awful as I worry that I am. I posted in entirely good faith. One person validated my experience and I’m deeply grateful for that.

I’ve been accused of lying and only giving one side of my story. I know the truth and it doesn’t matter to me if strangers think they know better. I’m not going to try and justify myself any more. I’ll be grateful for any genuinely helpful and compassionate advice.

Read some of your OP back to yourself.

I apologized repeatedly for my words. She thinks she apologized for hers, but it was very much ‘You made me say it’. She’s never accepted my apologies in so many words. ‘I’m sorry’ was met by silence.

So she believes she has apologised but that you started it and that she wouldn’t have said what she did without provocation from you. There’s nothing wrong with that. How else is she supposed to accept your apology except by moving on and not talking about the argument again? You sound like you want more from her than you can fairly expect.

I’ve since heard stories about my BiL from my daughters and DiL that make me think he’s a narcissist or at least a genuine creep.

How is this related to the previous paragraph about your sisters apology? It has nothing to do with your relationship with your sister. You don’t have to like your BIL, but you have to accept that your sister does. Or, you can choose to stay away from both of them.

My sister was so horrible and unforgiving and seems to have forgotten that now.

But you were horrible too. Why did you get in contact and apologise if you don’t want to forget about it? Again, you seem to be expecting more than you deserve

Agree and is gaslighting not a sustained campaign to basically fuck with someone's mind? Not an innocuous, one off and truthful comment!

Then I think you should have some therapy and thrash things out there, where the only object is for you to understand yourself and formulate a way of moving forward with your family relationships. No therapist can reassure you that you're not 'as awful as you worry that you are', but they'd be up for teasing out why this is the point you seem to keep coming back to, as if you wish some umpire or referee could come in and declare authoritatively that either they're 'toxic' or you're 'awful'. Is the reason you want to be assured that they're the bad guys because you're worried that, if they're not, you're the bad guy?

Of course you're only giving your side of the story -- that is the only one you can give. But presumably you're aware of the possibility of another side, where your sister might say 'My sister got angry about my husband dropping the ball on the sale of our flat, I defended him and she responded with a barrage of drunk criticism so spiteful and vicious that even after she apologised, I couldn't bring myself to forgive her for months. Now she wants to talk it all through, but I can't bear to think about any of it, as she clearly hates and despises my husband, and there's no getting past that'?

Yes, as I’ve said I worry all the time that I’m the bad guy.

Her side of the story would have to include that she lied to me about why he’d dropped the ball and also that after two glasses of red wine her sister sent one message that said ‘Is this still you talking or is it your OH?’ That would be the literal truth.

Maybe she isn’t sorry and that’s why she hasn’t said she is. Perhaps she said that she didn’t want to talk about it ever was her way of being able to move past what you said, but she doesn’t feel regretful about what she said in response.

I think you have to decide if you want to let this go and continue to have a relationship or not let it go and not have a relationship with her.

And frankly, it doesn’t sound like you can let what happened go.

But when we agree with you that you probably are… well, hell hath no fury!!

If she doesn’t feel regretful about what she says, she presumably doesn’t care much about my well being. If so, I don’t think I want her to be part of my life.

I felt awful about what I said because it hurt her and I care about her. She seemed more interested in punishing me and she knew just where to put the knife in.