To think these people are toxic?

[WartFace]

Newbie/lurker here hoping for clarity:
I’ve always felt uncomfortable around my bil. For a long time I blamed myself. My ds and I have a shared interest in a small property. We decided to sell and bil offered to do the marketing. He was rather casual about the whole thing and I found out that he’d failed to tell me something crucial. I lost my temper and said some fairly spiteful things to my ds. I know I should have kept calm and dealt with him directly but I didn’t.
She was incredibly angry with me and the whole thing escalated, leaving me utterly stunned. She took the opportunity to tell me everything I’ve ever done wrong, largely acts of omission plus a few made up offences. I tried and tried to defend myself but she wouldn’t hear me. I went nc for a while and felt better but we agreed to get back in tentative touch. Now she writes me letters every so often, as if nothing was ever said, very newsy and friendly but superficial. I’m very confused. What do people think? I’d be grateful for any perspective you have, thank you all!

I’ve told you what I said. I thought they were quite spiteful?

Either she’s being controlled or she’s as toxic as him. I’m hardly going to be thrilled by either.

Yes, allocate her. If you'd previously been the one with responsibility for the flat and associated admin, you were the one seeking to offload some responsibilities that had previously been yours, so presumably you decided what elements of the job of selling you wanted to keep and which to transfer to the other owner of the flat.

I cannot imagine why someone who thinks her BIL of 30 years is toxic and controlling, and that his behaviour has infected that of her sister, would then hand him ultimate responsibility for a key element of trying to sell a jointly-owned flat, especially one that had previously failed to sell.

You asked the wrong question, it’s not about the house it’s about that fact that he is quite a horrible bloke , you don’t like him which is fine and on top of that he did the thing with the house. Posters are answering your original question where you were spiteful and your sister was spiteful so it looks like 50/50 albeit you apologised. You are looking at it with all the information and back story .

when you say you were spiteful what did you say? I assume it was something based on what you’ve experienced from him rather than just the relevant incident? She’s felt attacked and retaliated. Were your parents ones to bring stuff up when they argued?

Ok, fair enough. I’m sorry I simplified the story but it’s long and complicated. I accept what you say, thank you.
May I reword my question?

I think my sister is married to a toxic person, possibly a narcissist. We fell out over something he did and she was punishingly cruel to me.and won’t accept that. I feel that he’s damaged her and that she’s willing to hurt me badly rather than face up to things.
What should I do?

What do you want? A repaired relationship with your sister? An apology? For her to recognise the error of her ways and leave him? Realistically, what is your best case scenario?

You’re right. It hadn’t even occurred to me to see it like that. I’ve always been self-doubting and just assumed it was me that was wrong and he meant well. If I’d told him not to do the work, it would have led to this very situation. My sister would have been furious earlier that’s all

@WartFace I get where you are coming from. My father in law is a narcissist he is currently up on charges for sexually assaulting a neighbour and there was DV for decades on MIL and tonnes of other narcissistic behaviour so although he isn’t formally diagnosed, the patterns of behaviour speak for themselves. It is impossible to ask for opinions on any one thing he has done without giving full context because without the bigger picture people can only look at the snapshot. This is what you are getting back from people here. You have the snapshot and people can only comment on that.

My mother in law who is not by any means a narcissist has been badly affected by having a narcissist for a husband and has behaved very toxically herself so I see the dynamics you are speaking off about your sister too. My mother in law is an enabler but lots of narcissistic people marry other people with a similar world view so your sister could be either. Either way you have developed a coping mechanism of over analysis and that is why you are even questioning yourself here. They are obviously people you need to have at the absolute best seriously managed relationships with.

I think that is probably a better description of what happened reading back.

I think you have to accept that this is her long term partner who she chose and presumably still loves so whatever you feel or have to say about him falls on deaf ears.

She has backlashed against what you said/implied about the man she loves.

If she is carrying on as though nothing happened then just mirror that and say no more about him. As you go forward just carry on being nice to her without mentioning him and if it ever feels appropriate then say I am always here for you, you know.

Yes, I absolutely see what you are saying. I didn’t give the full story and maybe the background changes the perceptions of others. I don’t think I was playing games, just made wrong editing choices!

We had a very tense WhatsApp exchange. I was asking for clarity and she was obviously running back and forth between us, trying to sort out what was happening. When she told me that we’d lost our buyer, I made it clear that I would have expected to be told sooner. She made up a story that was an obvious lie. If she’d just said they’d forgotten I would have been less angry. She started lecturing me about various technical matters and I said ‘Is that really X speaking or is it y?’ Apparently this meant ‘Y has a sinister agenda and he’s trying to rip me off’ - what???

My parents were both hopeless. BPD and narc tendencies. They both fought dirty.

Thank you so very much for this and I’m terribly sorry you’ve had to endure this nightmare. I absolutely get what you say about a snapshot. There’s something that physically creeps me out about this man and my sister has chosen to rant at me for’never visiting’ (not strictly true) rather than ask me what the problem is. I suppose deep down she doesn’t want the truth.

Thank you so much. It breaks my heart because I am always there for her but I think I’m being scapegoated, just like my mum did to me. I always loved her for her funniness and cheerfulness and generosity and it was awful to be turned on so viciously. But I hope she’s just protecting herself. I don’t see a happy outcome really. We lost our brother when we were all young and there’s only us so I find it truly sad.

@WartFace sounds to me like you need/want to discuss what happened with her - particularly the things you feel were untrue. How you do this without it all blowing up and ending up n/c I don’t know. Sorry, no help really but clearly it’s earing you up.

I suggested talking and she refused point blank. I sent a very short message in January, simply hoping everyone is ok. A month later she wrote me a letter, saying she was prepared to have a relationship with me on condition the recent and distant past was never mentioned.

All I want is for her to see and acknowledge that she hurt me too. You’re right, it is eating me up. I’m terrified that I am the narcissist and I just can’t see what’s real. I posted here to try and get a detached perspective but I messed it up rather badly! One particular poster has absolutely got it and been so incredibly helpful that I’m very glad I took the risk.

I’m replying again to your kind post to say thank you for what you said about over analyzing. I’ve thought of little else for ages and have read lots of books about toxicity. I know I’m trying to validate myself rather than think that I’m the problem here. My mum always told me off for over analysis, despite the fact that she herself did it. Her father was an obvious narcissist, very controlling and maddening - literally. Making people doubt themselves is big in my family. Thank you for such a helpful insight.

It sounds to me as if you have a choice between having some kind of ongoing relationship with your sister or an apology, not both.

She's defensive about her DH, and, having been put into a position where she was running between you on the issue of the weird fortnight's lag in telling you you'd lost the buyer, ultimately chose to defend him. You may be hurt by that, but that's where you are. It's perfectly possible she has glimpses of understanding that she's married to someone awful, but is choosing to go with the sunk cost fallacy and stay married, and doesn't want to hear her sister say negative things about him. It's easier for her to think you're just being a meanie for never visiting than for her to think you seldom visit because you loathe her husband on the understandable grounds that he's a dreadful person.

I also think that, especially if the original altercation was all happening over WhatsApp, that you're possibly blaming her DH for things that were actually her fault. Was the lie about the reason for you not being told the buyer hers or her DH's for instance? Was the failure to pass on the information sooner hers or her DH's?

Basically, though, I think she's been very clear that she's not prepared to discuss the altercation. I think you either accept that and move forward because you want an ongoing relationship with her, even if it's not the one you wanted, or you insist on discussing the past, with the risk that she just disengages.

Was the flat actually sold in the end, or is it ongoing?

It sounds like your sisters way of dealing with conflict is to lie to keep the peace, brush everything under the carpet and carry on as if nothing has happened. You have a different way of dealing with issues.
Sometimes you have to learn let go of the need for an apology, or the truth, because you aren't going to get it. Letting other people be who they are, flaws and all, warts and all, can actually be liberating.

No I don’t think they’re toxic.

You started it by losing your temper and by your own admission saying some harsh words. Your sister duly retaliated.

You don’t get to play the victim because her words hurt you like you hurt her.

Thank you for such a considered and insightful post. You’ve given me food for thought there. At the moment I’m keeping in touch in the way she insisted - family news etc, nothing deep. I suspect that’s how things will remain. My ideal would be for her to confide in me as she used to but that would mean her having to admit that he’s a wrong ‘un and I honestly don’t think she could do that now. I think she’s suffered a lot but hasn’t told me. She knows I’m always here for her if she wants to be honest.

I was desperate to sell but they refused to drop the price so we now have another tenant and they (aka he) is managing it all.

I regret not having told the whole story in my first post. I’ve given more background if you’re interested.

This, definitely! I’ve just read a brilliant book called Let Them, which said exactly that. And yet I doubt myself and make myself a hostage to MN … silly moo.

@WartFace could they afford to buy you out? Then you can take a step back and leave them to it.

Bil has suggested it. OH and I have bitten his hand off. We’ll see. He can be rather Walter Mitty.

I’ve completely stepped back now and it’s a relief. It’s only when you’ve had your words twisted and everything turned back on you that you can feel this outrage coupled with utter bewilderment!

OP, why don't you ask mods for the thread to be removed and repost. It looks like you need to off load but your situation is obviously now more complicated. It is up to you x

That sounds like good advice, thank you! I’ll do that.