To think these people are toxic?

[WartFace]

Newbie/lurker here hoping for clarity:
I’ve always felt uncomfortable around my bil. For a long time I blamed myself. My ds and I have a shared interest in a small property. We decided to sell and bil offered to do the marketing. He was rather casual about the whole thing and I found out that he’d failed to tell me something crucial. I lost my temper and said some fairly spiteful things to my ds. I know I should have kept calm and dealt with him directly but I didn’t.
She was incredibly angry with me and the whole thing escalated, leaving me utterly stunned. She took the opportunity to tell me everything I’ve ever done wrong, largely acts of omission plus a few made up offences. I tried and tried to defend myself but she wouldn’t hear me. I went nc for a while and felt better but we agreed to get back in tentative touch. Now she writes me letters every so often, as if nothing was ever said, very newsy and friendly but superficial. I’m very confused. What do people think? I’d be grateful for any perspective you have, thank you all!

Cross-post with you. But from what you say, there’s more back story to this argument. If you’ve never liked your BIL, why involve him at all in the flat sale, especially giving him the (most) important job of communicating with the EA? Why involve him at all, or anyone other than you and your sister, who are, presumably, the beneficiaries of the estate?

No, they do not sound toxic. You sound at least as bad - saying you feel ‘uncomfortable’ around your sister’s husband and kicking off by being spiteful. Apologising the next day doesn’t mean much, you can’t unsay whatever nasty stuff you blurted.

So she’s reinstated a surface level
contact and you’re still festering over an argument that happened two years ago… but she’s the one storing up previous issues to throw in your face?

Pot, Kettle.

Not toxic, just a rotten relationship between sisters and their spouses.

Your response was very defensive. I'm just sharing my personal experience but looks like you're not prepared to meet your sister half way, with a compromise. As I said, if you want rid of the property, you need to get your shit together.

Why indeed. He’s the boss. He makes all the decisions. I’ve wondered about their relationship for a while but it was none of my business. But I feel he was cavalier with me and that has brought me into it. Very complicated backstory.

One of the reasons I feel uncomfortable around him is because at a family party, when my youngest introduced her new partner, he asked them what their favourite sexual position was.

Oh, here we go, the tap is dripping.

Sorry?

Sorry but you don't get to start drama and then cry victim when the consequences hit.

Looks that way!

OP: 'Are these people toxic?'
MN: 'Doesn't look like it no, you've just had a falling out and at least your sister seems to be extending an olive branch'
OP 'Yeah but he's a sex pest too!'

Sorry, but I’m genuinely confused by this. Is it ok for an uncle to speak to a niece like this?

And of course I’ve never mentioned this to my sister.

Him being a revolting perv has nothing whatsoever to do with him failing to tell you your buyer had dropped out, or you and your sister falling out about it. But I will assume you addressed the comment directly, to his face, at the time, rather than saving it and getting into a fight with your sister about it?

The dripfeed just makes it even more inexplicable that you trusted someone you don't like or trust with probably the single most important job in selling a flat that's proven difficult to shift. If you know he likes to be the boss and makes all the decisions in his marriage, your sister was highly unlikely to have been on top of it -- that makes it an even poorer idea to essentially give him a lot of power in the selling process.

I was replying to the poster who objected to my feeling uncomfortable around my bil. I think he’s toxic and controlling and I’m worried that my sister has taken on some of his traits. Both our parents had personality disorders.

Like other posters, you’re making a lot of assumptions. I never mentioned the incident to either him or my sister. As I have said, the flat is jointly owned. I wanted to share the responsibilities because for years I managed everything and was accused of refusing to share information!

You were the one who started with spiteful remarks by your own admission. She responded similarly matching your energy. Do you consider yourself toxic or just frustrated by the situation? If she matched your energy then you will know whether you were toxic too.

I'm not making any assumptions. The only information we have is what you've stated on the thread. The flat is jointly owned with your sister, I assume, if your mother left it to you. I get wanting to share responsibility, but if you knew your 'toxic and controlling' BIL was likely to be doing the lion's share of whatever it was she was supposed to be doing, surely it made more sense to allocate her something her DH couldn't screw up as comprehensively, if he took over?

And why wouldn't you say 'That's a completely unacceptable thing to say' to your BIL who has just asked your daughter and her boyfriend what their favourite sexual position is?

Do you want a decent relationship with your sister ?

if so you need to find a way to rub along with sleazy controlling brother in law and get over the row and start communicating and seeing each other , only you know if you need to clear the air or consider it water under the bridge

or , keep your distance , and communicate only when necessary

I don’t think the comments were comparable at all. I basically asked if this was her talking (it was as on WhatsApp at this point) or her OH because it didn’t sound like her. That’s what I said. She retaliated with false accusations, mind-reading and all sorts of stuff which made me realize she’d been saving things up for years. I don’t believe I started it. She and her OH did, by lying to me. I realize that my behaviour was out of order and have admitted that all along.

Allocate her? She’s not a child. I assumed that however unpleasant he is, he’d be able to liaise with an estate agent and keep us informed. Maybe I should have said straight out that I don’t trust him?

Because my daughter was too embarrassed and mortified to tell me.

I suppose that’s the question I should have started with. I know he’s toxic but for years I told myself I was in the wrong (I was the family scapegoat). I’ve spent more than 30 years trying to rub along with him but he has shown disrespect to my family and this was the last straw. Really I was hoping to know who’s toxic in this story. I’m scared it’s me.

Your opening post actually says:

I lost my temper and said some fairly spiteful things to my ds.

So now you are saying you didn't.

Even if that is what you said you implied to her that you think she is being controlled by him. The reality is sometimes family members often assume that to be the case when they don't like their siblings partner because they don't like that the sibling and partner are actually a tight unit and actually the sibling isn't controlled at all, just in a partnership with a like minded person.

Of course it's not! You've got completely the wrong end of the stick. My point was that if you are going to ask 'Are these people toxic?' and expect the good people of Mumsnet to agree with you, it's probably best to mention the bit about him being a pervy wrong 'un at the start, rather than drip-feeding it in after a really quite anodyne story about a bust-up with your sister.

I’m finding this a really interesting experience. I can see that my thread title may have looked aggressive. I also see that I’ve dripped information but it’s a very complicated story. I feel that some posters have assumed that because I started the argument I am the aggressor and presumably deserve what came next. I don’t think so because I am dealing with someone who doesn’t behave normally (my bil). I take full responsibility for my own behaviour. Unfortunately my sister doesn’t do the same and in fact blames me for things I haven’t done or said. It feels like gaslighting and it’s horrible. I can understand that some of you have made your mind up about me and of course that is your prerogative.